The SBC Debate

I have copied below the interesting debate that has been continuing as Comments following my Post

 about Lonigans death at SBC. Ive reposted it here because I suspect that other people might

 be interested to read it but not be aware that it is ongoing.

 Dave said...

Proponents of the quartered bullet theory forget that they were banned by the Geneva Convention. At Stringybark Creek, Ned reloaded the shotgun loaned by Vicar Sandiford with solid shot. This caused shocking injuries when used on Aaron Sherritt later.

Whenever the Kelly story is examined in detail, disturbing elements emerge. They have been glossed over by the apologists.

22 October 2014 07:07

 

 Stan said...

Dee you are doing a terrific job dissecting past and modern folklore. But there is very little reliable evidence about what happened at SBC. My inclination is to believe McIntyre more. He was versed in giving evidence, although probably traumatised by what he experienced. At the end of the day there is nothing else.

22 October 2014 07:30

 

 Dee said...

Stan, as you say McIntyre was traumatised and this I am sure is why his recollection of precise details was not perfect, but overall like you I am inclined to believe him. It was very cunning of Ned Kelly to adopt McIntyres version as his own, having recognised the benefit to himself and his reputation of not correcting McIntyres mistakes.

Dave, are you the DaveH kicked off NKF?

22 October 2014 14:50

 

 Johno said...

Our 'friend' on the Ned Kelly Forum has drawn attention to this, "Ned Kelly 192 Success Facts - Everything you need to know about Ned Kelly" by
Jean Jordan.

It is so badly written it is nearly unreadable. It says, for example, that part of the Old Melbourne Gaol has been incorporated into a nearby academic institution. Of course it hasn't. Ludicrous nonsense.

We have been warned, I guess, that there are people who misuse information gleaned from the net to produce online 'books' that are nearly totally worthless. The 'publisher' is in San Francisco. Asking price is over eight bucks.

Garbage.

26 October 2014 06:44

 

 Matt said...

The price is actually $25.99.

You can only read a couple of pages and, if you try to cut and paste, you get unintelligible script that makes no sense.

The person who wroe this must be a schoolkid. The only thing that makes any sense is the citations.

As for 192 'success facts' about Ned Kelly, this is a non-contribution that seems more like a scam than historical facts.

27 October 2014 03:24

 

 Matt said...

Here is the address for the strange online book:

https://www.scribd.com/book/243532539/Ned-Kelly-192-Success-Facts-Everything-you-need-to-know-about-Ned-Kelly

Here's a short quote, patiently typed out, about the Old Melbourne Gaol. "The three-storey gallery screens data and memorabilia of the convicts and workforce, containing demise masks of the carried out lawbreakers. At one time the gallery shown Ned Kelly's cranium, before it was purloined in 1978; as well like the pen applied by unjustly declared guilty Colin Campbell Ross to complaint his guiltlessness in authoring, beforehand being carried out. Paranormal fans assert the gallery is possessed, with asserts of Ghostly ghosts and inexplicable vocals nearby cells".


Somehow "Captain Moonlite - Celebrity criminal", dancer "Gene Kelly", "Kate Kelly (outlaw)" and "Victoria cricket team - Logo and uniform" creep in as 'Everything You Need to know about Ned Kelly'. Ian Jones gets two lines.

Dunno where this fits in exactly, in the vast Kelly literature.

27 October 2014 04:23

 

 Bill said...

Hi there Dee,
Your analysis of is a pretty good read. Just what a forensic doctor would question.
Sorry but your own conclusion that Ned adopted McIntyre's story line to make it his own does not really work.

Reading your account quote from Ned (Jerilderie letter) third Para-
Ned said " Lonigan ran some six or seven yards to a battery of logs instead of dropping behind the one he was sitting on".

I have prepared one SBC images from Peter FitzSimons' Ned Kelly book.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-first-encounter-pfitzsimons-kelly-book.jpg
see position No1 for Lonigan if he was sitting on the log.

Mc said, "After building a large fire - Lonigan remained on the North side of the logs looking South" (No2)

McIntyre does not say Lonigan was sitting on a log as in Ned's version.

McIntyre said, after hearing the call to 'Bail Up'

The Age 6 August 1880 reported -
Mc said " Lonigan was standing on the opposite side of the fire to me, and about 10 to 12 feet from me " (No 2)

"Lonigan had started to run towards a tree"
McIntyre says, when "Lonigan was shot" he was "about 10 yards from me" and he ran only 4 to 5 yards before he fell. (No3)

Mc said "shots were fired" at Lonigan, more than one when he cried out "Oh Christ I am shot" and NOT the fatal shot.

Mc said, after the shooting "Kelly jumped across the 'logs A and B' and went in the direction where Lonigan was lying" See No 3

On 7 August 1880, McIntyre continues at the hearing-
McIntyre visits Ned Kelly at the Benalla lock up.
Mc questioning Kelly about the shooting of Lonigan. Kelly said, " Lonigan got behind some logs (A and B)
and pointed his revolver at me" Kelly said to Mc, " Did you not see that? "
and Mc said " That is only nonsense "

Here we have the typical 'I know what happened' but your version does not suit me even though you know I'm right you lier McIntyre, all in Ned's favour because he was behind bars.

Dee, you will see Ned did not exactly adopt McIntyre's version of events.
Ned Kelly Mc said, after the first shot Kelly switched from rifle to pull out from behind a pistol.

Mc said 'shots' were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one.

We can believe Dan Kelly also had a firearm, so perhaps three shots were fired or even four if Steve Hart had one too.

Joe Byrne was said to have had an old large bore shot gun, so perhaps in the scurry, four shots were fired from rifles and pistol without counting Joe's old gun ? And perhaps after Lonigan he had fallen, McIntyre said Lonigan continued to convulse for some time. Perhaps by this time the revolver Kelly was said to have, was used again in an attempt to finish Lonigan off, and because this pocket revolver had to be manually loaded with powder and a bullet, and was not the full ready to load and fire cartridge type gun, perhaps a low amount of Gunpowder sent the bullet at low power into Lonigan thigh.
I should mention, the body of Lonigan was moved from the north side of the logs to behind Log 'B' as Mc said elsewhere Ned realised the body would be visible to the two other returning police. This is also supported by the illustration of the day - the Sydney Morning Herald drawing McIntyre himself endorsed.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sydneymail16nov1878sbcdrawing.jpg

In any event Dee your analysis, your write up is of importance as this is exactly what should be being discussed. It is evident that all these so called Kelly experts on forums are not capable of debate. If they were called upon to do so in a public at say at a Beechworth Kelly symposium they would run a country mile.

Hope this helps to further discussion.
Bill

28 October 2014 01:16

 

 Swinehund said...

I was mighty irritated to find that NKF's chief censor has managed to delete another three Forumjar forums. This is 37 forums deleted (not counting other forums and blogs he has had removed elsewhere). In addition to being an accomplished internet serial pest, he has found a way to scam support teams into deleting forums. Sickening.

Bill and Dee, what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable. That's the problem. Even the internet serial pest mentioned above has an opinion. It does not coincide with either of yours.

28 October 2014 06:45

 

 Dee said...

My next Posting is nearly ready but in the meantime...

Swinehund - even though the Forumjar threads have mostly been rubbish, they are never-the-less "forums" for free speech, something which one Kelly moron in particular doesn't like. In themselves, they are not a great loss but the repeated destruction of these outlets for the expression of free speech is an outrage, as the right to free speech is a cornerstone of the democratic society. The perpetrators FB page is an odious bloated offensive and illiterate piece of cyber-trash but even so I would defend his right to have it out there, have never, would never ever consider complaining to FB to have it removed, and would not support any attempt by anyone to do so. The right to free speech is too important to abuse it in trying to silence idiots.

The "192 Succes facts.." is an obvious scam that the poster to NKF has promoted out of ignorance I would say. He will certainly not have forked out any of what he likes to call his "hard earned" to get it to find out what it says, and neither would I.

Bill thanks again for a detailed reply.In the McIntyre Manuscripts that can be read on the Victoria Police site, McIntyre reports Lonigan as having been shot once before dying, and this version is the one repeated in all the books about SBC, but as I was pointing out, given the post mortem reports, it makes no sense, and my Post was an attempt to make sense of it all. There are as you point out many differences between what McIntyre and Ned Kelly reported about the exact sequence of events, but the only place Neds version can be put to the test is to compare his claim of shooting once only, to the PM report. However, if anyone ought to have a fair idea of what really happened I think it must be you!

28 October 2014 07:28

 

 Rich said...

This probably belongs on Forumjar, but the forums are disappearing so fast, there's nowhere left to post. NKF member Lisa, however, poses an important, perhaps crucial, question. She rightly mentions the circumstancial nature of the evidence at this stage. So do I. There is a lot about the Ned Kelly Weekend that needs fixing. I tried to buy a copy of Ian Jones' new book over the 'phone. Two Burke Museum volunteers told me a cock-and-bull story about who was selling the book (Friends of Burke Museum) and that they couldn't help. The NKWE seems a shambles. Indigo Shire needs to massively lift its act. However, Lisa said this:

"Going by the NKW facebook page it looks like members of the Committee are dropping out (for whatever reason) everywhere.The Vice President,now The President.I wonder if it all has to do with some people on the board being accused of stealing money and bullying others over the years? It will be very disappointing if that all turns out to be true.The thought of people using a special weekend dedicated to Ned & the boys to steal money is extremely bad to say the least.I think this has and will put a real dampener on the NKW if it isn’t all sorted out,as I believe a lot of trust is gone.I know I am already wondering what kind of people we have been paying good money to see in re enactments etc are really all about? I already wish I hadn’t donated a copy of The Last Outlaw book towards the auction,as I thought all the money was going towards the NKW & being dedicated to Ned,I hope it didn’t instead just go into a thief’s pocket.


"There was never any trouble like this with the original NKW Committee.Sad and lousy that this has all happened".

I would absolutely hate having to apologise to Trent and Karma, but will do so if necessary.

29 October 2014 06:24

 

 Dee said...

It is ironic that our open and free society puts up with an annual celebration of a Police murderer by people who constantly seek to suppress and censor beliefs they don't like by expelling people, deleting Forumjars, other Forums like my ones and Blogs!

Obviously as time passes and the truth about Ned Kelly is more widely known the NKWeekend will decline in popularity, eventually become an embarrassment and finally cease to exist - maybe this is the beginning of the end for it? What an irony it would be if the NKW came to grief because someone was emulating their hero by robbing the place!

Does anyone else find it curious that a woman with a quite sickening infatuation with Ned Kelly is complaining about robbery, something she otherwise seems to find admirable in her hero?

29 October 2014 13:22

 

Comment deleted

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

30 October 2014 05:53

 

 Tired of Silly Tyranny said...

There is a book waiting to be written about the endless infighting between the Kelly freaks. They are supposed to be fans of the cop killer and career criminal, but continually argue among themelves. Most of them hate Bill and Carla - one of the weirdest self head-kicking exercises in history. They have a lot more hates than likes.

I don't get them, or what they're on about.

31 October 2014 06:25

 

 Anonymous said...

Dee and Bill,
You may find it beneficial to familiarise yourselves with the information provided within the following sources:

G.W.Hall. The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges. Written shortly after the shootings at SBC. Ned Kelly fired a charge of small bullets at him, one of which, entering his brain through the orbit of his right eye, brought him to the ground as a corpse. The other wounds from the scattered pellets were comparatively unimportant.

J.J.Kenneally. The Inner History of the Kelly Gang. 1980 edition. Page 52. When Ned Kelly fired. His gun was loaded with a charge of swandrops.


T.N.McIntyre. A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Page 36. He possessed several bullets taken from the bodies of the dead policemen.
Described the gun used by Ned Kelly as being loaded with slugs made by quartering a spherical bullet.
(This document can be read unedited online courtesy of the Vic. Police Museum)

Bill,
Mc said 'shots' were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one?
The body of Lonigan was moved ?

As Swinehund said what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable.
However, it is not at all helpful if false information is used to form the basis of an opinion.

5 November 2014 17:17

 

 Dee said...

Thanks anonymous. The problem you have to solve now is how a single shot from a gun with a quartered bullet - or swan drops - could have produced the injuries Lonigan received. How is it that one grazed his right temple, another entered his left thigh laterally and a third entered his eye diagonally from in front and to the right? And this as he hid behind a log pile and was supposed to be lining Kelly up to shoot at him.

The other problem you still have to solve is how, if only one shot was fired and one of the quarters went into his brain, he was then able to stagger about with upraised arms and call out "christ Ive been shot" before collapsing. This is simply impossible.

Much simpler and logical to accept that more than one shot was fired, understandably McIntyre misremembered, and Ned was happy not to correct him. All Kelly students know he told lies - this was just another one.

6 November 2014 21:01

 

 Anonymous said...

Dee,
By the information provided above do you now accept that Ned Kelly’s gun was loaded not with a single bullet but with slugs?

6 November 2014 21:47

 

 Dee said...

Hi again anonymous
Yes, I would accept that Kellys gun may have been loaded with something other than a single bullet but theres no agreement about whether it was swan drops or a quartered bullet - they aren't the same thing ( like creeks and springs aren't the same thing right?) Your quote from GWHall, if you are going to accept it, creates for you the problem of his statement that Lonigan fell to the ground "as a corpse" - no crying out, no raising of hands, no walking.

Lonigan could only have said "christ Ive been shot" BEFORE the bullet went into his brain. Therefore at least two shots.

In any event, swan drops etc do NOT, CANNOT explain Lonigans injuries, and neither do they make it possible to accept Kellys claim that he fired only once.

I would ask though, where did GW Hall and Keneally get their information from? Only Ned Kelly would have known what his gun was loaded with, so is Hall and Keneallys claim based on recorded statements of Ned or second and third hand information, or their own attempts to make sense of the conflicting claims about how Lonigan died?

( sorry I don't have my Forum anymore, it would make this sort of interesting debate more accessible - I am sure you know who to thank for that!)

6 November 2014 23:46

 
Dee, 

Public records Office: The Prosecution Brief VPRS 4966 Unit 1 Item 6 Record 1:Document brief for the Prosecution: Queen v. Edward Kelly – Wilful Murder of Thomas Lonigan.
PROV holds two and a half copies of the four prosecution briefs thought to have been prepared for the trial. PROV also holds a copy of a further brief for the trial for the death of Scanlon which did not go ahead. 
Samuel Reynolds sworn saith:-
I am a legally qualified medical practitioner and surgeon residing at Mansfield
I was present at a magisterial Inquiry on the body of Thomas Lonigan
I had first seen the body of Lonigan at Stringy Bark creek early on the Monday morning of the 28 th Oct – lying in its position on the back –
I first casually looked at it, It was a dead body – I also saw the body of Scanlan a few minutes afterwards
I noticed a wound in the face on Lonigan’s body
I made the post-mortem examination on the body of Lonigan on the following day at Mansfield –
On examining the body I found four wounds – one through the left arm and one on the left thigh, and one on the right temple, and one to the inner side of the right eye-ball, from the appearance of these wounds I looked upon them as bullet wounds – 
The wound on the left arm was simply a hole through the arm
The one on the thigh – the bullet had travelled under the skin & round the thigh – Nearly to the inner side of the thighThe wound on the right temple I might describe as a graze – The one on the inner side of the right eyeball, I traced through the bones into the brain & followed the wound into the brain, and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound. 

An enquiry was held into the deaths, presided over by H.H.Kitchen. Esq. J.P.
Dr. Samuel Reynolds -On Oath.
"Have examined the body of a man that I am told was Lanigan: 
Found wounds on the left arm, which I have no doubt were caused by bullets, one of which had passed through the arm; one wound on the outside of the left thigh; one on the right temple; and one on the inner side of the right
eyeball. The bullet which entered on the outside of the thigh passed along
under the skin and lodged on the inside of the thigh; the bullet which
entered by the side of the eyeball passed through the bone of the orbit and
drove portions of it into the brain. Death must have been almost
instantaneous from injuries to the brain.”


Regarding the wound to the inner side of the right eyeball.
You will note that Dr Samuel Reynolds states - death must have been almost instantaneous - 
and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.


A few seconds (By the Doctors estimations) He did not die immediately. Allowing enough time for Lonigan to call out.
This is also accords with McIntyre’s statements.