tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post6187979725148605206..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: Misguided Homage to a KillerDeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-77281769806669392142017-11-19T17:22:56.243+11:002017-11-19T17:22:56.243+11:00No problem! I look forward to your return and your...No problem! I look forward to your return and your next contribution. <br /><br />But while you're away you're going to have to think about this : what is your justification for suggesting its 'highly questionable that the figures are indeed facing towards the north"?? I agree assumptions have to be made about what Burman may have had in mind when he created those images, because he didn't record them as far as I know and he's not here to tell us what they were. But why HIGHLY questionable ? None of us has the luxury of being able to advance an argument WITHOUT making assumptions, but I believe my assumptions about what Burman would have been trying to do and about what he would have most likely known and attempted to recreate are logical and reasonable, whereas yours seem to me to be illogical and unreasonable. <br /><br />I think if you told the story of SBC to someone who had never heard it before and then showed them a Burman photo, their immediate response would be 'oh thats Ned Kelly hiding behind the Log with McIntyre nearby and looking to the north to see Kennedy arriving and about to get shot' If only Burman had thought to put him on a horse.<br /><br />And the other thing - south or southwest or south east is a very long way from the CSI idea about the photo orientation, which they reckon is northeast and I am certain is 180 degrees out.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-45121956999119949402017-11-19T13:51:43.369+11:002017-11-19T13:51:43.369+11:00My apologies. I am a bit rushed today. In my last ...My apologies. I am a bit rushed today. In my last post I wrote “Do match McIntyre’s own descriptions or how he has placed them in his diagram” Obviously this should read “Do not match”. I will be away for the duration of next week. I am enjoying our discussion. Hopefully we may continue upon my return. NMLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-42525788764865459302017-11-19T12:58:19.899+11:002017-11-19T12:58:19.899+11:00No doubt Monk saw exactly where the bodies were. T...No doubt Monk saw exactly where the bodies were. To say that he was informed of the exact details of the events by McIntyre is only an assumption. Just as it is an assumption that Burman tried to recreate the scene as accurately as possible. He was not a forensic photographer. I have already demonstrated that it is highly questionable that the figures are indeed facing towards the north. (That is if the image was taken looking towards the south) If Bill’s current thinking varies things or he does change his mind on directions to suit a purpose then how can they be taken seriously? He has stated his case and presented his conclusions more than enough. <br /><br />The positions of the men shown in the Burman image have been the cause of much confusion for good reason. They are not an accurate portrayal of their positions at the time of the conflict. Do match McIntyre’s own descriptions or how he has placed them in his diagram. I fail to see how they can in anyway be used as a reliably reference. NML <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-75216104586720140882017-11-19T11:11:00.918+11:002017-11-19T11:11:00.918+11:00I was referring to Bill's descriptions. Not Bi...I was referring to Bill's descriptions. Not Bill. NMLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-40904242279110402402017-11-19T10:51:30.893+11:002017-11-19T10:51:30.893+11:00Thats a quite offensive metaphor to describe Bill,...Thats a quite offensive metaphor to describe Bill, NML. Not at all helpful.<br /><br />However I do accept that Bills site contains numerous variations of things that seem to track the evolution of his thinking about SBC, and so I would be very interested to hear from Bill if his current thinking is that the photo was taken to the SE. <br /><br />My interpretation of the photos rests firstly on an assumption that Burman would have tried to be as accurate as possible when attempting to recreate the scene of the murders. I believe the information he received from Monk would have been accurate as Monk saw exactly where the the dead bodies were, and was informed of events by McIntyre. I therefore contend that irrespective of the need to have people in places that would make a useful photo rather than an exact recreation of the scene which could not be captured in a single frame, Burman would never-the-less have had the seated figures looking north, and the "Kennedy" figure approaching from the north. If you take a photo of a person looking north from their front right hand (north and eastern) side, then you are necessarily pointing your camera towards the south and the west. <br /><br />There is no rational reason to propose anything else about these photos, and I have yet to be shown anything written by McIntyre that necessarily contradicts that interpretation of them.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-5227469452298505622017-11-18T17:01:22.972+11:002017-11-18T17:01:22.972+11:00Totally agree Bill. An SBC symposium would be a gr...Totally agree Bill. An SBC symposium would be a great way to get everyone together and present their findings, which can then be analysed by everyone present. Put your cards on the table so to speak.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-77589983262608672782017-11-18T14:42:07.711+11:002017-11-18T14:42:07.711+11:00“4. That the Burman photo is looking SOUTH SE with...“4. That the Burman photo is looking SOUTH SE with the creek on the left of the photo” SBC the authentic location. by Bill Denheld.<br /> You say S/W? Understand what I mean about generally changing things around? <br />The man seated on the log in the Burman image is looking towards the right side of the image. WEST. (Towards SBC road) <br />Now, if you were to move the seated man and (NK) across to the other log and face them looking towards the north and that he and Kelly are looking down the creek over the body of Lonigan. Who was shot as he ran partially towards and down the creek (N/E). According to Bill he was shot near the stump in the foreground and then later moved to the other side of the log. (Where the guy NK with the gun is in the image.) Even though there is no written evidence to support this conclusion. The point is that when it comes to positioning of all the men involved, McIntyre’s diagram and descriptions make sense. Bill’s do not and are like a mad woman having a shite, all over the place. NML<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-75430031362514729902017-11-18T08:29:51.448+11:002017-11-18T08:29:51.448+11:00Ok fair enough. But its still not clear to me what...Ok fair enough. But its still not clear to me what point you were trying to make. My point is that the Burman photos show us where north is because, irrespective of their exact placement on logs, Burman has the men on the logs LOOKING to the north, and "Kennedy" is APPROACHING from the north. This then reveals that the camera was facing the south and west when the picture was taken. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-89973409655896136132017-11-17T23:57:16.897+11:002017-11-17T23:57:16.897+11:00Dee, you've gotta admit though that Fitzy has ...Dee, you've gotta admit though that Fitzy has given us all huge laughs from his frequent gaffes over the years too! <br /><br />He's not exactly a Kelly expert. Let's just leave it at that.<br /><br />You have done devastating damage to the Kelly Legend which has been wrecked.<br /><br />Some fools can't let go. We will be correcting them for ages perhaps aeons.<br /><br />Nil Desperandum Dee! You're doing them splendidly. That's why they still demand to know who you after five years.<br /><br />Keep 'em guessing sweetie!Warren Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-40622895779032874612017-11-17T18:26:41.155+11:002017-11-17T18:26:41.155+11:00Dee, If by using the words “turn him around” is t...Dee, If by using the words “turn him around” is the cause for any misunderstandings. Then I retract them. Perhaps I should have said something like, move the seated man across to the other log and face him looking towards the north. (That is of course if the image was taken looking towards the south) Trust that answers your request. <br /><br />If the seated man has his back towards the creek, I fail to see how he could be looking north or down the creek towards SBC road. Perhaps you mean to the N/W. Pointing him wherever you like. As far as I am concerned he would be sitting on the wrong log anyway. My opinion.<br /><br />Am I supporter of the CSI teams findings? I am not entirely a supporter. (For reasons of my own) They certainly have a better sense of direction than some here. More firmly use McIntyre’s evidenced, do not play with Photo Shop, draw creative images, or generally change things around. I mostly support the man with the compass. NMLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-22997288863037183912017-11-17T11:54:16.462+11:002017-11-17T11:54:16.462+11:00Its fine Bill. Whatever people want to discuss is ...Its fine Bill. Whatever people want to discuss is up to them! <br /><br />As you well know there was once a time when I had a different Forum, and several different threads on different topics would have continuing discussions going simultaneously but as we all know, Mick Fitzsimons sabotaged them because he hates people who have views that are different from his, and because he is too stupid to be able to engage in any kind of constructive debate. The only debate he knows is personal abuse, or else if he can engineer it, censorship, banning or gagging of anyone who disagrees with him. <br /><br />Much as I would like to restart such a Forum again, having had them wrecked by this odious Kelly vandal twice already, I don't have the energy to try again. So in that regard as someone who hates free speech he has something to be proud of, because he has to an extent succeeded in suppressing our right to freely express our views. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-88709635238582869732017-11-17T09:46:05.341+11:002017-11-17T09:46:05.341+11:00Dee, like usual your special topic is being ignore...Dee, like usual your special topic is being ignored. Please accept my apology as I changed the subject in my first post. Sorry. Stuart kept it on track but SA McCarthy then posted and it went on from there.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-11244939093700890502017-11-17T07:33:51.582+11:002017-11-17T07:33:51.582+11:00I think most people would agree the ordinary meani...I think most people would agree the ordinary meaning of "turn him around" equates to rotating someone through near enough to 180 degrees. NML you seem to be deliberately refusing to answer my request that you clarify exactly what you meant by this, now yet again failing to give a direct answer and instead asking a new question about Lonigans body. Its becoming apparent, as Bill has suggested that you're not fair dinkum : lets see if you will answer this simple question : are you a supporter of the CSI teams findings?<br /><br />North, or 'down the creek' is clearly indicated in the Burman photos by the direction the "McIntyre" and "Ned Kelly" actors are looking, and the place from which "Kennedy" approaches. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-17340535214860929362017-11-17T06:15:14.403+11:002017-11-17T06:15:14.403+11:00Hi Cameron - by "tackled" do you mean cr...Hi Cameron - by "tackled" do you mean criticised? I'm not arguing anything, just pointing out that what the newspaper article of the day said about the petition signatures seems to be correct, after scrolling through the PDF file which is about 700 sides of paper under about 270 header pages or "batches". I'm not sure there is anything to "tackle" here, it's a straightforward observation.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-39970333464150407732017-11-17T03:32:08.976+11:002017-11-17T03:32:08.976+11:00“The problem is, in the photo he has the logs on h...“The problem is, in the photo he has the logs on his left and on his map (if he faced north) he has the logs on his right” SBC, the authentic location. by Bill Denheld. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-54640394818965174322017-11-17T02:06:04.999+11:002017-11-17T02:06:04.999+11:00Dee,
“ To make it all fit together (as Bill found...Dee, <br />“ To make it all fit together (as Bill found) would need to move the seated man across to the other log turn him around so that he faces north”<br />Turn the seated man by a lot or a little. If north or close to it is looking down the creek then that is the direction McIntyre said he and Kelly were facing. <br />"Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek he looked over the body of Lonigan which was about 8 yards from him and a couple more from myself”. <br />So where was the body of Lonigan located? NMLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-25874598275657189012017-11-17T00:33:07.829+11:002017-11-17T00:33:07.829+11:00 “The problem is, in the photo he has the logs on ... “The problem is, in the photo he has the logs on his left and on his map (if he faced north) he has the logs on his right” SBC, the authentic location. by Bill Denheld. <br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-31263568456349419622017-11-17T00:14:39.953+11:002017-11-17T00:14:39.953+11:00Many petitioners only put down their suburbs and n...Many petitioners only put down their suburbs and not street addresses. This undermined proper identification and rendered the petition useless.Ashleigh Broadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-21009679286057767692017-11-16T20:48:31.041+11:002017-11-16T20:48:31.041+11:00Interesting how nobody has tackled Stuart about ho...Interesting how nobody has tackled Stuart about how the petition looks like it only had a few thousand signatures and not thirty thousand. Thanks for the page numbers Stuart. I had a look today and think you may be right.Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-53496262284041346572017-11-16T20:45:05.554+11:002017-11-16T20:45:05.554+11:00That guy wants to say the photo should have shown ...That guy wants to say the photo should have shown what he wants to see instead of what it does. Amazing. Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-50482205197484560282017-11-16T19:28:06.338+11:002017-11-16T19:28:06.338+11:00Dee, and readers, you can now see how some try to ...Dee, and readers, you can now see how some try to confuse and create doubt and twist un-complicated logical conclusions to seem a problem, when no problem ever existed. Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-1883045490697517262017-11-16T17:05:39.628+11:002017-11-16T17:05:39.628+11:00NML are you deliberately avoiding or just forgetti...NML are you deliberately avoiding or just forgetting to answer my request for clarification about what exactly you mean by turning those men around? If you mean that turning them right round, through 180 degrees, results in them facing north, then what you are saying is that the photo is looking from the west side of the creek towards the east. That would mean the creek should be somewhere on the other side of the logs and the men in that photo. It's not me that is suggesting there should be a creek in that photo, but YOU because that is the direct implication if your claim that the men should be turned around.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-75789883301947264362017-11-16T15:10:14.751+11:002017-11-16T15:10:14.751+11:00McIntyre’s – A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang.
P...McIntyre’s – A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang.<br />Page 21. “Kelly then said to his mates “that will do lads, take your places”. Byrne and Dan Kelly returned to the rushes. Hart remained in the tent, and Kelly concealed himself at the angle of the logs near our fire. He called me over and directed me to stand in almost the same place I had occupied when first stuck up. Kelly was in one angle formed by the logs, on the creek side, and I was in the angle other, on the tent side.” Conversation with Ned etc….. Followed by:<br /><br />Page 23. “During the above conversation Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek he looked over the body of Lonigan which was about 8 yards from him and a couple more from myself.” To be looking both down the creek and over the body of Lonigan they were facing north. <br /><br />Refer to Bill’s (The true extended Burman photo) Dee, your question:<br />‘“Why, if you think turning the men around results in them facing north, there is no SBC to see in the photo between them and the slope. Because there should be.”<br /><br />I don’t know. If you think the creek should be between the men and the slope you will have to work that out for yourself. NML<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-61733072327590897292017-11-16T11:28:43.816+11:002017-11-16T11:28:43.816+11:00Anonymous, regarding a SBC meeting, I’d be happy t...Anonymous, regarding a SBC meeting, I’d be happy to be in that, but I set one up in 2009, and recently last August. <br /> <br />See page9 - <a href="http://www.denheldid.com/twohuts/newsupdates2.htm" rel="nofollow">SBC Interpretive Strategy DELWP document</a> wherein I suggested to the authorities and DELWP before spending any moneys I wrote to them asking- <br /><br />“ Why not invite a large number of interested persons, photo forensic experts, archaeology students, the police history museum people, forest managers, historians and anyone interested meet at SBC. A show and tell by all parties, and then on another date attend a SBC symposium set up to unravel and evaluate all that can be presented, and filmed as we go by University Film making students. This would make a very interesting documentary and let primary sources, science and logic decide where all this signage is to go.”<br /><br />Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-78118040240625263322017-11-16T10:22:51.286+11:002017-11-16T10:22:51.286+11:00I should have added that you will have no doubt no...I should have added that you will have no doubt noted their self-appointed spokesperson, the abusive Kelly fancier Mick Fitzsimons is continuing the CSI approach of attacking Bill while completely ignoring the gaping holes in their own case, posting garbage that exhibits his ignorance of photographic perspective and drawing lines on photos to indicate slopes that aren't there. A debate with Fitzsimons would be pointless, except perhaps as a demonstration of a spokesperson who would resort to any kind of dishonesty or personal attack to try to 'win'.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.com