tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post3070482712364127183..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: Ned Kelly's Words: mightier than Guns and SteelDeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-3816339974211275792015-11-04T20:15:57.059+11:002015-11-04T20:15:57.059+11:00The two photographs taken the day before his execu...The two photographs taken the day before his execution helped the legend as well. The defiant stare of the man behind the armour!Inquisitivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08468641570448245780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-51505444323745676942015-11-01T03:26:37.201+11:002015-11-01T03:26:37.201+11:00If something as good as the Joe Byrne stuff emerge...If something as good as the Joe Byrne stuff emerges I will give a rebel yell! :) <br /><br />Yes, I do remember about some Kelly related telegrams being put up for auction and everyone angrily saying that they should be given back to the archives rather than profited from. I don't remember all the details right now, but that could the case you are referring to, or is it another one? Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-82087922536325864592015-10-31T21:59:41.197+11:002015-10-31T21:59:41.197+11:00Please excuse my bronx cheers!
Missing stuff can ...Please excuse my bronx cheers!<br /><br />Missing stuff can indeed turn up again:<br /><br />A recent case involving archival estrays related to the<br />capture of bushranger Ned Kelly has ended happily, with<br />the return of six valuable manuscript documents which<br />have been missing from the official record since around<br />1935. The documents include telegrams, a proclamation<br />and letters from Sir Henry Parkes, all relating to the<br />Kelly Gang and the siege by police at Glenrowan.<br /><br />https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/documents/vital-signs/issue-03/Vital%20Signs%20Issue%203%20-%20Estrays.pdfClivenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-53237961326235506702015-10-31T21:21:05.897+11:002015-10-31T21:21:05.897+11:00MacFarlane listed other missing records not mentio...MacFarlane listed other missing records not mentioned in McMenomy. I hope you can hear the raspberries I'm blowing!Clive Rigdennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-78420396535146174592015-10-31T07:14:17.308+11:002015-10-31T07:14:17.308+11:00McMenomy beat MacFarlane by about 30 years with th...McMenomy beat MacFarlane by about 30 years with that info, either they both were dipping into the same well or he dipped in McM's. Still, it is good to have the information out there in several places that interesting things have gone walkabout. We best not hold our collective breath ever expecting to see any of it, but it would be a wonderful surprise if something finally turned up. Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-71990561483897432382015-10-30T22:52:05.368+11:002015-10-30T22:52:05.368+11:00Many of the missing archival documens are mentione...Many of the missing archival documens are mentioned in "The Kelly Gang Unmasked" book. Those letters had illustrations showing the gang shooting at police, drawings of coffins, and funeral crepe. No wonder they have vanished!Clive Rigdennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-72175991462612314552015-10-30T20:02:37.112+11:002015-10-30T20:02:37.112+11:00I agree that Joe's diary would be the find of ...I agree that Joe's diary would be the find of a lifetime<br /><br />In McMenomy he has that Sadleir said "Joe Byrne was better educated than any of his companions...and was very fond of writing, and was a bit of a poet. A great deal of his writings fell into our hands. They were chiefly directed against the police.."<br /><br />Also in McMenomy it said that "Byrne went to great lengths to shatter the detective's [Ward] nerve, sending him a constant barrage of 'poison-pen' letters between 1878 and 1880. The most original were blank sheets with renderings of coffins and wreaths; other less subtle cartoons showed the outlaws despatching him and his comrades in a variety of ways. By far the most amusing was a pseudo-reward bill which Ward said 'was a counter-blast to the Government reward offering 8,0000[pounds]...for the apprehension and delivery in Strathbogie Ranges of Captain Standish, Senior Constable Mllane and myself..."<br /><br /><br /><br />In The Fatal Friendship it talks about Joe writing Kelly related ballads and said "while Joe's lyrics sank into folk culture, he also conducted and coordinated 'poison pen' campaigns against such prime targets as Detective Ward and Constable Mullane - even distributing mock reward posters and caricatures for posting up in public places."<br /><br /><br />In the notes at the back it mentions that the saddler Kinnear had a copy of one of the Kelly ballads in Joe's handwriting but that it has since disappeared.<br /><br />I don't know if any of the letters or posters that allegedly fell into police hands ever made it to archives or if they were destroyed or souvenired long ago.Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-34012965430552081102015-10-30T16:12:14.663+11:002015-10-30T16:12:14.663+11:00I think there were fifty or sixty letters from the...I think there were fifty or sixty letters from the gang, according to police. A proportion were written by Ned.Paul C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-34890055054594905292015-10-30T14:18:08.861+11:002015-10-30T14:18:08.861+11:00Hi Sharon. Regarding these lost or stolen Joe Byr...Hi Sharon. Regarding these lost or stolen Joe Byrne documents. What documents are these? Were they in public collections (library or public records office)? How do we know they existed? Were they actually seen by anyone? Joe we understand was the most literate of them, but apart from the Jerilderie and Cameron letters (written on behalf of Ned) I'm not aware of any other documents that could be attributed to him. There is talk of a diary of course, and wouldn't that be a find!Inquisitivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08468641570448245780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-85946038423892121622015-10-30T10:06:45.551+11:002015-10-30T10:06:45.551+11:00Are there allusions or references to letters or ot...Are there allusions or references to letters or other wrtiings (besides the Republic of NE Victoria declaration that is still not proven to exist) by Ned that remain unseen? I know that we have heard of many things Joe Byrne penned that have been lost or stolen.Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-45968753546282002332015-10-29T21:32:50.661+11:002015-10-29T21:32:50.661+11:00The many missing Ned letters might have solved the...The many missing Ned letters might have solved the puzzle.Paul C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-886646667025567402015-10-29T19:40:09.722+11:002015-10-29T19:40:09.722+11:00I am glad that we have been able to draw Brian int...I am glad that we have been able to draw Brian into the conversation and back into the fold. <br />The first thing I thought when the letter writer said "I present my respects to the Sydney police" was that he was being very sarcastic. Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-67603259738421350802015-10-29T18:48:08.714+11:002015-10-29T18:48:08.714+11:00A masterful analysis from Brian Stevenson! What mo...A masterful analysis from Brian Stevenson! What more is there to say? I hadn’t picked up on Neds respectful greeting to the Sydney Police, but agree that is an especially uncharacteristic departure for Ned. Thanks Brian. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-51014902617932436072015-10-29T15:02:02.378+11:002015-10-29T15:02:02.378+11:00Justin Corfield's suggestion is that the '...Justin Corfield's suggestion is that the 'denigration of the Chinese is out of character with the Gang's friendly relations with the Chinese community.' <br /><br />I have a few thoughts on the Parkes, or Bathurst letter, which appears in John Meredith and Bill Scott's book, Ned Kelly: after a century of acrimony, page 77. There is a photo of the letter itself on pages 78 and 79 and Mr Meredith located it among the Parkes correspondence in the Mitchell Library. <br /><br />I believe it to be a forgery, but for other reasons than what Justin suggested. <br /><br />To take the Chinese question first, this is the only time Ned ever showed any interest in what was happening to the labour market, of which he knew he could never again participate. The writer refers to the desperation felt by the white man and warns of desperate times to come, but there is no mention of the police, squatters or any of the others that he was far, far more averse to than the Chinese. He even gives his respects to the Sydney police, something quite different to what the real Ned would have preferred to give them.<br /><br />The whole letter does not bear a trace of the mixture of self-justification, self-pity or really bloodcurdling threats characteristic of the Cameron and Jerilderie letters. A candid threat 'that I intend to rob Bathurst and particularly the bank' does not really compare with tying people to anthills and strewing brains on the grass. The other threats are vague and indirect: 'I do not intend to be taken alive.' 'Highway robbery is in its infancy.' Surely Ned, driven mad with rage and frustration at the non-publication of the Cameron and Jerilderie letters, would have come up with something better than that. There is no passion or colour in this letter, and without the threat to rob the bank,it's a pretty boring piece of work. <br /><br />The writer's own references to himself are a bit telling in my book too. 'Captain E Kelly' sounds pretty anemic indeed next to 'a widow's son outlawed [whose] orders must be obeyed', and 'a forced outlaw.' (Jerilderie and Cameron letters respectively.) There is something a bit comic opera about the self-designation as Captain, and we know Ned always took himself very seriously indeed. Incidentally, the E Kelly signature is a bit telling to me also. Of the nine letters transcribed in Meredith's book, this is the only one not signed 'Edward Kelly.' By March 1879, the date of the purported letter, Ned was a national, indeed an international celebrity, and signing off as E Kelly seems a bit subdued (for want of a better word) to me.<br /><br />Finally, the letter itself. I'll bow with respect to the handwriting expert,Tahnee Dewhurst,in the Cormick book that observed similarities between this and the Babington letter, albeit inconclusive ones. However, as Ms Dewhurst noted, she was working from 'limited material', and it was never part of her brief to assess the style or content of the letters. Although the content is a bit mundane, the letter reads pretty well and is easy to follow, no long sentences, no rambling and a virtual lack of spelling and grammatical errors. Compared to the other letters, the punctuation is more than passable. This further cements my belief that the Parkes-Bathurst letter was written by another hand (and a rather mischievous one, at that), for reasons we will probably never know. <br /><br />Brian Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02197294428071830797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-28838972044868661462015-10-29T13:26:22.384+11:002015-10-29T13:26:22.384+11:00Ah, well, so much for murmuring of sweet nothings ...Ah, well, so much for murmuring of sweet nothings in the moonlight! ;)Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-2203769089261812042015-10-29T12:25:41.937+11:002015-10-29T12:25:41.937+11:00It hadn’t occurred to me that the Parkes Letter wa...It hadn’t occurred to me that the Parkes Letter was a forgery - I thought it sounded like Ned, and I regard it as VERY poor form for Justin Corfield to suggest it was a forgery but not say why, or provide any supporting information. <br /><br />Chapter 22 of Ned Kelly Under the Microscope is titled “Analysing the handwriting” . The result of comparisons between the handwriting in the Parkes Letter and the Babington letter - the letter Ned wrote to Sgt Babington in 1870 (the “Black Snake” letter) - is reported as “Similarities Observed. Inconclusive as to common authorship”. In fact of all the comparisons that were made, this was the only one where no dissimilarities were observed. The 8 year interval between the two documents limited the comparison, but I think it would be reasonable to say that the analysis provides no support to the idea that the Parkes letter is a forgery.<br /><br />Lastly, in defence of MacFarlane, a person is no less a racist by being among a society full of them, but in my Post I wrote that that racist remark of Neds was unexceptional for the times.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-28354248090383848412015-10-29T11:38:53.005+11:002015-10-29T11:38:53.005+11:00Well Sharon with the benefit of hindsight, if I tr...Well Sharon with the benefit of hindsight, if I travelled back in time and Ned offered to gallantly escort me through the bush, depending on what stage of the Outbreak we were at, I would take the opportunity to tell him not to go and confront the Police at SBC because that would end badly for everyone. I would also tell him that he needed to leave the hatreds and animosities between Irish and English back in Ireland, not to import them to the new Colony, to stop being a larrikin and show-off and not to hate and be jealous of Whittys success but learn from his example , that by hard work and determination you can succeed in Australia, even if you start with nothing as Whitty did. <br /><br />Somehow I don’t think he would have taken my advice though! He was too angry, too eager to look for others to blame for his problems and too willing to look for an easy solution. - stealing, robbing from Banks and threatening anyone who got in his way.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-9423128564477189412015-10-29T08:29:02.522+11:002015-10-29T08:29:02.522+11:00Offhand, I don't recall any forum discussions ...Offhand, I don't recall any forum discussions about the Parkes letter, but Brian Stevenson had the following in one of his multi-part reviews of Ian McaFarlane's "The Kelly Gang Unmasked" at our Eleven Mile Creek blog -<br /><br /><br />"Rather ingenuously, MacFarlane accuses Ned of having a ‘thick dab of racism’. He bases this on Ned's written complaint to New South Wales Premier Sir Henry Parkes about ‘an inundation of Mongolians [ie Chinese]’ on the labour market which, Ned cheekily informed the future Father of Federation, would lead to an increased incidence of highway robbery. Ned’s alleged boyhood assault on the hapless Chinese traveler Ah Fook was also brought up, along with a listing of Joe Byrne’s assaults on Chinese. MacFarlane neglects to put this into the proper context. The dislike of Chinese in nineteenth century Victoria was hardly restricted to Ned and was pervasive throughout all levels of migrant European society in all Australian colonies at the time, and for quite some time afterwards. Moreover Ian Jones has shown in A short life (page 158) there is evidence of some support for the Kelly Gang in the Chinese community. Finally, the authenticity of the Parkes letter has been questioned by at least one respected authority, Justin Corfield, in his Ned Kelly encyclopaedia."<br /><br /><br />Back to me, looking in Corfield he does not give any references as to why he thinks it was faked or by whom.<br /><br />However, reading the letter now, it makes whomever wrote it to look like a prophet given the state of the entire world today, just insert your nationality of choice where it says "mongolians." -<br /><br />".....for the white population is been driven out of the labour market by an inundation of mongolians and when the white man is driven to desperation there will be desperate times..."Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-74732704208263119122015-10-29T06:37:17.565+11:002015-10-29T06:37:17.565+11:00All good points. I guess I should have worded it a...All good points. I guess I should have worded it a wee bit differently. Say that it was you yourself, Dee, as a female who time traveled back and knew what you know and feel and say about Ned Kelly - psychotic murderer, etc - who met up with him not some average male squatter or copper who would be his natural adversaries. And you have said no, you would not be afraid as you know he only shot the aforementioned squatters and coppers. I didn't mean to put you on the spot, I was just very curious.<br /><br />As for me, if I first met some big imposing man on the path, of course I would be very apprehensive and a bit fearful, but if I found out he was Ned, I would feel like that I was safer than I was before as he would gallantly escort me to my destination. This would be from the time travel scenario and the being born in that time. Ned was widely known to never harm a female even then and let's not start in about the indirect situation of the Inn where the traps showed up and the people were caught in the crossfire, we are talking about one man in one place. :)Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-59610736623372798332015-10-28T23:25:53.834+11:002015-10-28T23:25:53.834+11:00Does anyone know somewhere that the Parkes letter ...Does anyone know somewhere that the Parkes letter is discussed in more depth?<br /><br />I know most over the years have suggested it was a forgery because it doesn't sound like Ned, but that Angela Baron thought it was definitely written by ned, and then a handwriting expert in Craig Cormick's book thought the identity of the author (as Ned) was inconclusive.<br /><br />So yeah, just wondered if anyone has discussed this previously online?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-79029215306049073092015-10-28T19:13:40.057+11:002015-10-28T19:13:40.057+11:00Wonderful question Sharon! My first thought was t...Wonderful question Sharon! My first thought was that no, I wouldn’t be afraid if I came face to face with Ned Kelly because he only ever shot at Policemen. But thats information we only know with hindsight. He certainly frightened lots of people at the time who didnt have the benefit of the knowledge we have today. All they knew for sure was that he had murdered three Policemen, was on the run and on meeting him were confronted by a dominating person who would threaten them with violence and worse at the point of his gun. The thought would surely be in the front of their minds that he might kill again at any minute unless they did exactly as they were told. Which is precisely what they DID do - So. I think if I came face to face with Ned Kelly and I was a squatter or a Policeman I would be nervous for sure, even a little afraid. Could any rational person not be afraid at a face to face meeting with a known murderer?<br /><br />How would you feel? Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-27298999311117275952015-10-28T15:47:21.490+11:002015-10-28T15:47:21.490+11:00So, given your overall opinion of Ned, let's s...So, given your overall opinion of Ned, let's say that you lived back then and you were out alone one evening on a isolated bush path, would you be frightened if you actually came face to face with him?Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-83677821012135746432015-10-27T18:55:59.259+11:002015-10-27T18:55:59.259+11:00The Armour as a signpost - nice analogy Sharon. Bu...The Armour as a signpost - nice analogy Sharon. But I think if the road down which it was pointing was to a violent psychopath, it would quickly be forgotten about! The signpost remains because it points to an attractive heroic icon! Just my opinion!Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-87230955387264108612015-10-27T13:14:33.222+11:002015-10-27T13:14:33.222+11:00Dee, one thing about the armour is that it is like...Dee, one thing about the armour is that it is like the one recognizable focal point everybody latches on to, even small children who have never read any of Ned's words (or are too young to read) instantly identify it with him. I can imagine that those who don't even speak the English language but are into Ned first associated the armour with him.I am living proof that the armour is one of the biggest part of his legacy. I spent most of my life just knowing that some outlaw in Australia named Ned Kelly used armour and had no idea he left behind any letters or statements. But, when I was finally drawn in to the story, then the words of Ned Kelly helped to put flesh on the man beneath the metal. Yet, you are correct in that the armour would not mean as much without his words telling his version of the story, but the road to Ned Kelly's world might have been completely missed by many of us if not for the armour as a signpost.Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-81122851119904013722015-10-26T20:05:16.762+11:002015-10-26T20:05:16.762+11:00Yes I agree its a great story, and Kellys writings...Yes I agree its a great story, and Kellys writings are fascinating in their furious and uncompromising passion. I take your point about the writings not being available at the time, but I wrote that it was his writings AND his self promotion that gave rise to the Legend - he was a great self promoter, even a genius at it, so that the Legend was already growing even before Glenrowan and the armour was seen. You may be right that it is the armour that kept the dream alive, but I would argue that the Legend is more important because it could survive without the armour, but the armour would have no meaning without the legend. Robin Hood didnt need armour or a clever gimmick to propel his image into Legend because Its the person and the dream at the core of the Legend that gives it life, and Neds writings and speechmaking spoke to many of the person and the dream, and in a way that armour never could. Fascinating stuff indeed! Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.com