tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post1762530961611626999..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: Exactly when did Ned Kelly stand up for his family?Deehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-89975511663107926562017-08-14T07:21:29.645+10:002017-08-14T07:21:29.645+10:00Brian, I only told Peter Fitzsimons about the glar...<br />Brian, I only told Peter Fitzsimons about the glaring errors I found as I based nearly all of them on the historical record. I never trusted what a particular author said without going to the original source they used to be sure when possible. He did not use all of my fixes, but he used many. It was not my place to tell him how to interpret the research he used. It seems, from the outcome (and probably the get-go), that he set out to do a pro-Kelly book, just as certain others set out to do anti-Ned books. It is like the story of the blind men and the elephant. Each had a different prospective they were working from. I won't get caught all up in that particular debate.<br />Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-43445253769813381042017-08-14T07:16:31.627+10:002017-08-14T07:16:31.627+10:00Ok, I have been sent the remaining text of Brad...Ok, I have been sent the remaining text of Brad's book by a friend and decided to have a quick look to see if I could spot anything else. While I had previously found about a dozen errors in the Glenrowan chapter I have now found nearly a dozenmore spread throughout the rest of the book. Was not sure if I should list them or just let others figure it all out. So, it seems the weakest bit is the Glenrowan chapter, then. Of course, if one wants to see a different view on the Fitzpatrick episode related within the book they need only to google for the "Redeeming Fitzpatrick" article by Stuart Dawson.<br /><br /> Also, there was this bit Brad Webb had in the acknowledgement pages -<br /><br />"I would like to acknowledge the invaluable input of three individuals who helped build this book, namely Chester Eagle, Noeleen Lloyd and Paul O'Keefe. Their aid in generating new leads, double checking facts and dates, spelling of names and places and general feedback is greatly appreciated. Any errors in the book are mine alone."<br /><br />That can be found on page 204.<br />Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-23554547469269469462017-08-13T20:55:55.953+10:002017-08-13T20:55:55.953+10:00Thank you Mark for the titles of the Crichton book...Thank you Mark for the titles of the Crichton books. I do not know them (yet). I remember seeing the 'Woman of Spirit' book somewhere a while ago. Thank you for reminding me.Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-28879910139430689692017-08-13T12:45:59.549+10:002017-08-13T12:45:59.549+10:00Hi Cameron. Sorry for the late reply. Yes, my K...Hi Cameron. Sorry for the late reply. Yes, my Kelly shelves are groaning under the weight these days. I have been collecting since 1981. You are correct. Holden, Waller, Bates etc contributed paper in Man and Myth. Alan Crichton has written 2 books, those being Far beyond the falls and Bound for judgement. (the Kelly story in verse.) Noelene Allen has written Ellen: A woman of Spirit. Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-15887782447177256312017-08-13T08:24:56.748+10:002017-08-13T08:24:56.748+10:00Well of course Sharon we can all 'enjoy a good...Well of course Sharon we can all 'enjoy a good story' and there is no doubt that the Kelly saga is one hell of a story. However, for people like myself, Dee, Stuart Dawson and many others, some aspects of the Kelly story which the masses have been fed on and are lead to believe are simply wrong. I won't bore you with the events I am talking about as you know them probably better than I do. But the annoying thing for me, as Stuart has pointed out, is that official sources still tell the inaccurate Kelly story through both the Australian Government's official website and the various school syllabuses which promote the erroneous 'hero/villain' approach. The problem however is that if you raise and question the inaccuracies and downright lies, you incur the wrath of those who want the story left as it is. Personally I have tried to debate numerous issues in the Kelly story only to be called a troll and much worse. I accept that at times I have responded in kind but I am a sucker for getting my back up. <br /><br />Interesting that you read Fitzsimons' draft before publication. Did you comment to him about some of his more glaring inaccuracies and omissions, or was that outside of your brief? And once again, this reasonably contemporary book on the Kelly story simply reinforces many of the myths which have been regurgitated and accepted over the years.Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-78374112325828276462017-08-12T05:42:07.040+10:002017-08-12T05:42:07.040+10:00I would be interested to see someone else go throu...I would be interested to see someone else go through the rest of the book and see what they find. I am now curious myself, but I don't have the book, and the chapter I compared is close to the online history page but slightly different in spots, so can't really have a proper go. I am pretty proficient/well-studied in the Glenrowan siege aspect of the story, sorta like how Bill Denheld is proficient with the SBC parts, so what is not quite right just immediately jumps right out at us. Maybe Bill can evaluate the SBC chapter if he has time? I can spot problems in the whole story, but it takes a bit more checking up on things but I generally know when things sorta don't ring true. When Peter Fitzsimons asked me to have a look over his Ned Kelly final draft of nearly 900 pages (no photos or end notes included) I had much less than a week (as it was scheduled to be on its way to the publisher) to read, spot "glaring" errors, and then search and find the proof that what I said was right. He did not take my advice on everything, but did take on many of my suggestions. Would have been nice if I would have been given the same amount of time as all the researchers had but I was not contacted or consulted until the very last after the others had done their part. Note I speak about errors in fact, not the whole subjective argument Dee has going on or on-going about hero/villain, terrorist/freedom fighter, thug/saint, etc. I like researching and reading about Ned, I like the whole era, the rich story. But, hey, I like to read about Jack the Ripper and Vlad the Impaler, and other historical bad men, too. Does not mean I condone what they did. I particularly love the Old West gunslingers. Much more interesting to read about than the average sodbuster of the day. Why can't we just enjoy a good story and have convos about it all without someone wanting to physically harm or harass someone else. Lord deliver us! Lots of good people have fallen by the wayside or never even stepped on the path due to the haters and we are all the poorer for it.Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-8417962508348361722017-08-11T09:08:47.440+10:002017-08-11T09:08:47.440+10:00Thank you Sharon for your obviously close examinat...Thank you Sharon for your obviously close examination of what Brad has written about Glenrowan. Seems the book, on this subject alone, is clearly inaccurate or misleading on many points. If that is the case, I suspect that other events Brad covers are also incorrect. And as has already been mentioned, he completely disregards contemporary research which has re-examined some of the keystone myths of the Kelly story. So how then can this book be treated as a serious reference for Kelly researchers?Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-14389560260747676272017-08-11T08:06:04.915+10:002017-08-11T08:06:04.915+10:00Maybe the Webb book is not a good starting point f...Maybe the Webb book is not a good starting point for learning the Kelly story after all. It sounds like a mess from this. BS might be a better word, and that's just one chapter. Does anyone care about facts anymore when the Iron Outlaw is involved? Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-23837097607900698842017-08-10T19:03:43.364+10:002017-08-10T19:03:43.364+10:00After perusing Brad's Glenrowan chapter, it is...After perusing Brad's Glenrowan chapter, it is more than obvious that he is very anti-Sgt. Steele (which I totally agree with) and very pro-Republic (which I don't really agree with).<br /> I found quite a bit wrong with some facts and where on the timeline some of the events happened. Brad is a smart guy who has been around the Kelly block a few times, so I don't know how these things slipped past him.<br />Things like having Bracken taken prisoner earlier in the day Sunday (when it was actually nearer to 10 PM) and, as Dee has noted, having Reardon tear up the tracks later in the day on Sunday rather than close to 2 AM Sunday, when it actually happened. George Metcalf is wrongly called William Metcalf in one spot, but correctly called George later. Easy to get confused as his name was George William Metcalf. Brad has Metcalf's age of time of death as 54 years old. Corfield has the same info. But the newspapers of the day and a family genealogical site has Metcalf as being 34 years old at the time. He also said that the telegraph lines were cut at Glenrowan. No, they weren't cut at Glenrowan like they had been at Euroa and Jerilderie.<br />The book speaks of Ned playing hop, step, jump with the hostages while wearing a full set of armour under his coat. The only other place I have seen that is in Graham Jones's "People, Places, & Things - The Kelly Years." All other sources say that Ned played the game while holding a revolver in each hand. I would like to know where Graham Jones got that. The book also says that Curnow used a red cloth shaw borrowed from his wife to use to stop the train. That is not correct, the shaw belonged to his sister.<br />The book said that Hare ordered his men to move among the trees and surround the hotel and that just as they had taken up positions the gang came out firing. What really happened is that Hare ordered them to do that later after he was wounded. To start with he told the others "Come on men, or they will be gone.." and they all rushed the front of the Inn. Then the book says Hare retired to the safety of the post office. Umm...no....he went to the Glenrowan railway platform to have his wounded bandaged, returned to the field of battle and then went back to the platform and got aboard a train which took him to Benalla. He went to the post office/telegraph office there and sent wires off and his wound was tended there.The book has Joe Byrne getting killed and then had Mrs Reardon make good her escape on the second attempt. Joe was still alive when she got out. Also the timeline seems to be off as it then has Johnny Jones crying out he had been shot. That happened during the 2nd volley of the day before at the start of the siege.<br />The book says Dwyer kicked Ned in the groin once he was captured. I am not sure about this. One witness says he saw him kick Ned in the side, another says he saw him kick Ned on the side of the leg. Dwyer himself claims (as he would) that "The kick I gave him was the kick I would give a cow to wake her up. It was to show my contempt. It would not have hurt a child."<br />Also, the book says that Maggie and Kate begged Father Gibney to go see Ned and give him last rites. Problem is, by the time the sisters had arrived Gibney had already gone in to see Ned and had already given the sacraments.<br />So, did I miss anything or do I have anything wrong?<br /><br />Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-51554254290903755322017-08-09T14:58:01.900+10:002017-08-09T14:58:01.900+10:00Dee, I have not gotten a copy of the book as it is...Dee, I have not gotten a copy of the book as it is not available here and there is no e-book unless you count the online stuff that has been linked, but someone did send me the Glenrowan bits to peruse. I will not be doing a review at my blog as I don't have the actual book, nor the time/inclination to point out and correct every possible thing wrong. I will come back here to say what I have found wrong with the Glenrowan narrative once I can make heads or tails of it. Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-52227710945448672262017-08-06T22:56:18.358+10:002017-08-06T22:56:18.358+10:00Brad Webb attributes his book's cover photo of...Brad Webb attributes his book's cover photo of Ned the day before his execution to the "Max Brown Collection". Since Max Brown couldn't have taken that photo of Ned, Max obviously had obtained a copy from the State Library of Victoria. Brad has attributed his cover photo to Max Brown (not the real owner or copyright holder of the photo), and has not obtained the necessary permission of State Library of Victoria to publish it or, if required, to pay the publication fee (usually a bit hefty for the cover of a book), etc., and obtain permission to publish. You can read about Max Brown here:<br /><br />http://www.ironoutlaw.com/old-site/html/max_brown.html<br /><br />This is a very basic mistake for Brad who offers publishing advice to his students and wannabe authors.<br /><br />Anonymous, I tend to agree with your comments about Dee's usage of Nolan paintings, although she often uses her own photographic images too. The Nolan paintings in his Ned series often change hands and are difficult to locate to seek permission to publish. That is not always an excuse. <br /><br />As for Brad, he or New Holland Books should get in touch with State Library Victoria pronto to get permission for that cover photo.<br /><br />I don't know what advice to offer the retired truck driver with the FB hatesite against an anti-Kelly book, who uses that Ned photo without permission and coudn't give a hoot.Horrienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-57547606565380146612017-08-06T19:33:28.246+10:002017-08-06T19:33:28.246+10:00Ha!!!!! Yes. Brilliant. You zinged me.... Ha!!!!! Yes. Brilliant. You zinged me.... Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-74449519587238160832017-08-06T12:39:09.776+10:002017-08-06T12:39:09.776+10:00And Mark, regarding your idea that unless you'...And Mark, regarding your idea that unless you've published a book yourself you shouldn't criticise, as you are not a restaurant owner or airline Pilot I suppose you wouldn't dare criticise the take-away you had for dinner the other night, or express an opinion about which is the better airline, Qantas or Virgin? I mean, unless you own a restaurant or an airline why would you have the right to criticise them? <br /><br />To use your words, 'see what I did there' and 'wink'Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-71357226104897097062017-08-06T11:46:31.864+10:002017-08-06T11:46:31.864+10:00Will Dee show the paperwork and permission given w...Will Dee show the paperwork and permission given with acknowledgments for the extensive use of Sidney Nolan’s Kelly paintings? Most Kelly websites display pictures that they do not have permission to use so where is the policing of this intellectual theft? Is wholesale painting and photo theft the new horse and cattle stealing? Just saying. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-10094324552249550202017-08-06T10:09:06.797+10:002017-08-06T10:09:06.797+10:00did those books you mention present both sides of ...did those books you mention present both sides of the story? Or were they simply better-referenced examples of the problems you mentioned? or do they just push their agenda?<br /><br />Sorry Dee I posted this originally in the wrong spot. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-26259450944331502122017-08-06T08:53:07.357+10:002017-08-06T08:53:07.357+10:00Mark are you saying that only those who have writt...Mark are you saying that only those who have written and had a book published can comment on a book about the Kelly story?Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-69929267161576453502017-08-06T08:01:07.258+10:002017-08-06T08:01:07.258+10:00Dear Mark, you seem to have a lot of rare books. W...Dear Mark, you seem to have a lot of rare books. What are the ones by Allen and Crichton? Waller, Holden and Bates are just chapters in the Cave book, aren't they? If any of these are actual books then two of us would like to know the titles. Thanks.Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-8038105443659613352017-08-06T04:00:03.637+10:002017-08-06T04:00:03.637+10:00So, Josh? Noddy. Mr. Wong? Garry? Mark? Pau...So, Josh? Noddy. Mr. Wong? Garry? Mark? Paul? Do I not get the courtesy of a reply? Crickets and tumbleweeds thus far... Hmmmmm.... Come on... Come at me ....<br />Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-15725938192437009552017-08-06T03:55:16.327+10:002017-08-06T03:55:16.327+10:00Dear Mark. How is your book on the Kellys coming ...Dear Mark. How is your book on the Kellys coming along? Can we expect a magnum opus? I very much look forward to it. GRRRRRRR!!!!! (wink.) And Gary? you too brother. I will buy it. When it's on the shelves. Looking fwd to 2 more Kelly tomes to bang up on my extensive bushranger shelf along with Jones, McQuilton, Fitzsimons, Castles, Webb, Osborne. Farwell, Kieza, Allen, Crichton, Dean, Jennings, Corfield, Cave, Waller, Holden, Bates, Penzig, Balcarek, Baron, Mc Carthy, Kenneally, Brown, Terry, Maloney, Seal, Passey... <br />Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-29929696999588190102017-08-05T23:10:15.275+10:002017-08-05T23:10:15.275+10:00Btw, did those books you mention present both side...Btw, did those books you mention present both sides of the story? Or were they simply better-referenced examples of the problems you mentioned. Do they present both sides of the story or do they just push their agenda?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-79269284536848938022017-08-05T22:02:46.868+10:002017-08-05T22:02:46.868+10:00Definitely author's choice yes. But a bad choi...Definitely author's choice yes. But a bad choice when the author will be remembered as a deceptive, misleading blockhead for eternity. Individuals may vary you're right. It is a case of the blind leading the bland. End of story. Gary Sayernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-1078008876247806892017-08-05T21:43:23.490+10:002017-08-05T21:43:23.490+10:00Being unbalanced is being MISLEADING! Grrrrrrrrr!Being unbalanced is being MISLEADING! Grrrrrrrrr!Mark Greisernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-15874309509558296162017-08-05T20:15:46.501+10:002017-08-05T20:15:46.501+10:00Constable McIntyre says in his 'True Narrative...Constable McIntyre says in his 'True Narrative of the Kelly Gang' that the Kelly women are always broke and that it is a 'chronic complaint .. notwithstanding the great number of horses and large amounts of money that passed through Ned Kelly's hands'Hamishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-66012784270657119892017-08-05T15:54:36.838+10:002017-08-05T15:54:36.838+10:00I call them the authors choice. What they are reme...I call them the authors choice. What they are remembered for by everyone who reads them is on the individual, and everyone will see it differently. Yourself and Dee compared to those on Facebook are a perfect example of that difference. <br /><br />So it's not misleading people now it's just unbalanced? ( this isn't me being sarcastic, it's an actual question). Since you seemed to have not answered the first two and now mention other authors that have done the same thing you originally complained about. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-54084934362824356072017-08-04T23:28:55.700+10:002017-08-04T23:28:55.700+10:00So, what do you call books that only tell one side...So, what do you call books that only tell one side of the story then? <br /><br />Telling both sides is called balance. Brad has joined FitzSimons and others in the dunces' corner. Their books will be remembered long into the far distant future as being unbalanced and recycling pro-Kelly nonsense. No scholarship or new research there.<br /><br />Macfarlane, Morrissey and Dawson quote from the original police and other documents of the time, and properly cite them (so people like you can check the documents for yourself - and like Dee here - have completely demolished the Kelly myths and legends.Mark Greisernoreply@blogger.com