tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post7761913415143409107..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: The Kellys have to stop lying about FitzpatrickDeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-30226155338399567502018-10-12T16:34:57.788+11:002018-10-12T16:34:57.788+11:00Anonymous all you can have is one of the many diff...Anonymous all you can have is one of the many different versions that the Kellys told. Mr Jones wrote the main book on Ned Kelly and got it all second or third hand or from the papers and he is not all right at all. The Kellys told all sorts of contradictory storys. What you said about 'unless you lived in 19th century Australia your perspective on life back then is irrelevant' goes for you too. You weren't there and you don't know any more than Leo Kennedy who knows a lot more reliable than you will ever be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-12077009494302674022018-10-11T20:37:42.232+11:002018-10-11T20:37:42.232+11:00Unless you are a relative of the Kelly family-as I...Unless you are a relative of the Kelly family-as I am- then not one of you has any right to make judgements on the veracity of those involved at the time. They were different times and unless you lived in 19th century Australia your perspective on life back then is irrelevant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-20798309347545623902017-06-20T21:16:31.180+10:002017-06-20T21:16:31.180+10:00That's the same 1881 affidavit I mentioned in ...That's the same 1881 affidavit I mentioned in the above post on 17 June at 18.05. It is possible Castles might not have seen the document itself, and just applied the same logic as you, that as it was a witness to the shooting it must have been either Williamson or Skillion. But it is also possible that he did locate the affidavit, as I recognise a lot of the sources he bases various things on, even tough he doesn't always give them. I am not able to go to VPRO to chase this manually at this point, and am not convinced it is worth the trouble as it seems that it would only be further confirmation of what can already be solidly established. Maybe it will turn up one day through someone else's searching (if it exists).Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-35318682506035897882017-06-20T21:09:53.459+10:002017-06-20T21:09:53.459+10:00My last sentence should read 'I think it is a ...My last sentence should read 'I think it is a document which has NOT been given the weight it should have in the 'Fitzpatrick incident' debate.'Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-68766252799175828762017-06-20T10:43:37.488+10:002017-06-20T10:43:37.488+10:00Stuart I have a quick squiz at the VPRO's kell...Stuart I have a quick squiz at the VPRO's kelly collection to see if I could find any trace of the supposed stat dec made by the 'Pentridge prisoner' and reported in the Argus of 5 July 1880. So far the only thing I have found of relevance and it is a document you are familiar with and ave previously cited. It is at http://access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/veo-download?objectId=090fe2738013dcda&format=pdf&docTitle=Image&encodingId=Revision-2-Document-1-Encoding-1-DocumentData and is part of the deposition made by William 'Brickey' Williamson in August 1881. It mirrors pretty much Fitzpatrick's account of what happened at the Kelly hut, particularly with regard to Ned's presence and his having shot Fitzpatrick. <br /><br />While obviously not the stat dec, I think it is a document which has been given the weight it should have in the 'Fitzpatrick incident' debate.Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-88980350692489960582017-06-20T08:26:53.017+10:002017-06-20T08:26:53.017+10:00Ah, the plot thickens! Some more digging at the VP...Ah, the plot thickens! Some more digging at the VPRO by someone (hint, hint).Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-27550809114438549072017-06-19T18:17:44.212+10:002017-06-19T18:17:44.212+10:00Brian, Alex Castles "Ned Kelly's Last Day...Brian, Alex Castles "Ned Kelly's Last Days" p. 123 says, "The sworn statement taken from either Bill Skillion or Bricky Williamson had raised new hopes that the government could proceed against Ned for the claimed 'attack' on the disgraced police officer." So it looks like the affidavit has been seen, but Castles does not give a VPRO reference.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-87862653844122592532017-06-18T13:15:35.617+10:002017-06-18T13:15:35.617+10:00You're right, that is logical. It should then ...You're right, that is logical. It should then be possible to search the online VPRS Kelly files for the two names Williamson and Skillion and a date range maybe 1 January to 5 July 1880 and see if anything turns up. The problem is that it depends on the VPRO having labelled the record (if it exists) with the specific name in the file title. A lot of files are collections of correspondence of varying sizes. It could (if it still exists) also potentially be in not-yet-digitised Kelly files, of which there are some unknown number, or as a long shot the prison records which are typically not digitised and often not accessible due to "fragility". I don't recall searching for it, but that doesn't mean I didn't have a try if I had noticed that article at the time, which I can't remember. There would still be an enormously better chance of finding that than a declaration of a republic of north-eastern Victoria, of course!Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-22548974361471909072017-06-18T08:56:26.077+10:002017-06-18T08:56:26.077+10:00The only reason I mentioned Williamson and Skillio...The only reason I mentioned Williamson and Skillion is that the Argus report of 5 July 1880 says that the prisoner"...was present when Fitzpatrick was shot by Ned Kelly...". The only others present, apart from the Kelly women, were Dan and Ned.Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-91202656452602800432017-06-17T18:05:54.866+10:002017-06-17T18:05:54.866+10:00Hi Brian, it took me a while to remember that. &qu...Hi Brian, it took me a while to remember that. "Rumour" will be the general negative rumours about Fitzpatrick propagated by the Kellys and associates, which got a lot of press. The affidavit cannot be Williamson's remission statement of 6 August 1881, VPRS 4969, Unit 1, Item 1, where he attests that he witnessed Ned Kelly shoot at Fitzpatrick, as that is a year too late for the newspaper report there. I do not recall seeing another Stat Dec or affidavit about this issue predating July 1880. Also, the little news item does not give any clues about in what way the affidavit it mentions might help exonerate Fitzpatrick. Other prisoners made statements to the police about the Kellys too, so the field is not limited to Williamson and Skillion. A new Fitzpatrick mystery! But as it sounds like it would, if found, only add further corroboration, I'm not going to put any time into following it up. Maybe one of the other Kelly enthusiasts who read this blog has come across it and could enlighten us?Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-65637309649005217822017-06-17T11:44:09.979+10:002017-06-17T11:44:09.979+10:00If this report is correct and not just a 'rumo...If this report is correct and not just a 'rumour', then I suppose the 'prisoner' mentioned would have to have been Bricky Williamson or Bill Skillion. I seem to recall that Williamson offered his 'services' to the police during the hunt for the gang following the murders at SBC. So if the Argus report and the rumour was correct, then it was more than likely that Williamson would have been the one who made the stat dec. However, I presume that no one has actually seen this during research. Stuart, any comment?Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-44149351442550769042017-06-17T08:02:23.861+10:002017-06-17T08:02:23.861+10:00"The Argus", Monday, 5th July 1880, Page..."The Argus", Monday, 5th July 1880, Page 6. THE kELLYS AND CONSTABLE FITZPATRICK. Rumour has been busy lately with the name of Constable Fitzpatrick in connexion with the Kelly outbreak. A prisoner now confined in Pentridge, who ws present when Fitzpatrick was shot by Ned Kelly, has made a statutory declaration which, if true, goes far to exonerate the constable from the charges made against him. At present the authorities deem it advisable to withhold the particulars set out in the affidavit.The Argusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-31336326705944596562017-06-16T11:20:56.803+10:002017-06-16T11:20:56.803+10:00I still think it's sad that so few people have...I still think it's sad that so few people have kicked in to Kickstarter for the Kelly film as there was so much talent and cinematic skill in the Ban Hall movie which is a welcome contrast to the endless shower of crappy movies we get from overseas. I keep hoping that some millionaire will jump in to support it. Outside of the very simple-minded "hero or villain" stuff in a large range of school books and junior fiction there is very little done on Kelly, and almost no diligent historical research goes into any of them. All we get is endless rehashed and mostly wildly inaccurate oral history from people who want to claim a link to the "famous" Kelly gang (and preferable to Ned himself) in the same way it was fashionable to have a convict ancestor in the 1990s. I noticed that Doug Morrissey has an article in the May issue of Quadrant, "It's Time to Bury the Ned Kelly Myth", which I haven't had a chance to go through yet, but it mentions at the end that he has another book coming out next year. Still, Dee, as long as there are numbskulls in charge of the history curriculum, there will be requirements to teach the young generation to adore bushrangers and disrespect the police with which numerous numskull teachers and textbook writers will cheerfully comply. Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-52873699214201812932017-06-16T10:55:00.517+10:002017-06-16T10:55:00.517+10:00I must admit until the Kickstarter Campaign for th...I must admit until the Kickstarter Campaign for the Ned Kelly movie got started I was probably of a similar opinion to this writer, that the Kelly stories and legends were well known and popular among a small but significant minority of Australians. I thought a few thousand would contribute but the Kickstarter campaign has been a massive failure and an embarrassing revelation for the Kelly fanatics, as its demonstrated that 'true believers' are an exceedingly small, completely insignificant minority of Australians. <br /><br />Kelly fanatics are a doomed species on the brink of extinction. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-54685296263090598972017-06-16T06:26:50.844+10:002017-06-16T06:26:50.844+10:00Hi Adam, the article link is http://www.heraldsun....Hi Adam, the article link is http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/ed-gannon-ned-kelly-the-cop-killer-still-fuels-fierce-debate/news-story/c533010f3a5fe58135bd7d11657be080<br />The article says among other things, "Yet his memory and legacy are invoked almost daily in courts, schools, pubs and parliament. His words are part of our vernacular, he is used in advertising and countless thousands of tattoos show his armoured image. Kelly may not have been a monument builder ... yet his mark on Melbourne and Victoria is astounding. Old Melbourne Gaol, Pentridge, the Supreme Court, the statue of his sentencing judge, Redmond Barry, at the State Library, the memorial to fallen police on St Kilda Road — few, if any, of these can get a sentence or two into their history without mention of Kelly."<br /><br />These are wild exaggerations. Outside of a bunch of enthusiasts and some idiotic school books, Kelly is rarely mentioned in daily life. None of his words "are part of our vernacular". No-one says 'such is life', although it appears on some people's bumper stickers. No-one says "as game as Ned Kelly"; that figure of speech flourished back in the 1920s to 1940s, died back in the 1950s, and effectively disappeared from the 1960s onwards, except in Kelly books which continue to claim it is a common Australian expression. I never heard it anywhere until I looked at Kelly history. To most of the many thousands of people I have met, Kelly is a non-issue. <br /><br />Back in the 1970s Kelly barely rated a mention in the Old Melbourne Gaol. His skull and death mask were there, but so were another 30 or so death masks, and there was no special feature signage. The “Kelly at OMG” is a last decade or so event, probably since the 2002 feature exhibition. Kelly is a non-event at Melbourne Uni where the Edmond Barry building was totally without reference to him when I was there (which is as it should be). Kelly in advertising is pretty rare. “Countless thousands of tattoos” is a wild over-exaggeration, as is the general claim for Kelly’s influence. Probably Nolan’s armour is the most common image that could be mentioned, but wasn’t. Even that is often mentioned without much glorification of Kelly. Apparently the Glenrowan siege site has heritage overlays, but there is no reason for that now as the archaeological site dig was done a few years ago. It's just a vacant lot like any other.<br /><br />The article ends with the claim that Kelly "continues to be a significant part of who we are." Again, this is simply not true. If I wasn't looking at 5 specific issues in this bit of history, three of which are already done, I'd never or only extremely rarely hear of Kelly in any part of normal daily life, and most of that would be negative, not idiotic hero-worshipping from weak and simple-minded historical beliefs.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-35914900182617119472017-06-15T23:56:06.596+10:002017-06-15T23:56:06.596+10:00OMG - a befuddling article in yesterday's Hera...OMG - a befuddling article in yesterday's Herald Sun by the editor of the Weekly Times. He gave Linton Briggs (the CSi@SBC time waster) a gong for helping preserve the Glenrowan siege site.<br /><br />The headline was attractive "Kelly the cop killer is still able to fuel fierce debate". But there was NO evidence of any kind of debate in the article...Adam Yatesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-74928205855769855672017-06-15T10:09:17.424+10:002017-06-15T10:09:17.424+10:00Have to agree that it is hard to see who's who...Have to agree that it is hard to see who's who in both the Lloyd and Quinn clans. So many involved in criminal activities, that is when some of them weren't being paid informers for the police.Brian Tatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-68053683029472812262017-06-14T23:11:25.319+10:002017-06-14T23:11:25.319+10:00The genealogy of the extended Kelly mob was not th...The genealogy of the extended Kelly mob was not the nicest. The Kelly Gang Unmasked book showed that Bricky Williamson was probably the father of one of Ellen's children. DNA tests perhaps for the lot of them.Henry Goldingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-89006798340230231732017-06-14T21:42:35.867+10:002017-06-14T21:42:35.867+10:00And while we're getting our facts right, my Ke...And while we're getting our facts right, my Kelly movie Platinum Pledge is $200 more than the average pledge there tonight, so maybe some of these so-called sympathisers could put their money where their mouths are like I have and back the thing properly. I want to see it succeed, what about them?Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-54570627219813157172017-06-14T20:49:46.585+10:002017-06-14T20:49:46.585+10:00Sorry Dee and whoever, Ian Jones says it was "...Sorry Dee and whoever, Ian Jones says it was "Dan and his cousins, Tom and Jack Lloyd" (Short Life 2003: 90). My bad in calling the Lloyds brothers. Ian Jones says "the three cousins arrived at the [Goodman's] house ... punched in a door panel, threw some furniture around and broke windows." Does that sort it out?Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-17367538118236993162017-06-14T19:17:41.272+10:002017-06-14T19:17:41.272+10:00Stuart one of the Kelly sympathisers is going ball...Stuart one of the Kelly sympathisers is going ballistic because you wrote 'two Lloyd brothers' instead of 'two Lloyd cousins'. I made the same mistake a couple of years ago, and Sharon pointed it out to me - there are so many Jacks and Toms its hard sometimes to remember who is who. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-39630318033577359202017-06-13T23:39:54.884+10:002017-06-13T23:39:54.884+10:00Ned was a creep as a youngster and followed an eve...Ned was a creep as a youngster and followed an ever deepening criminal career as a teen and into his 20s. Killing cops showed he wasn't risk savvy, and he was deservedly topped.. Paul Bairdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-53054060296355695522017-06-13T23:24:12.163+10:002017-06-13T23:24:12.163+10:00Dan wasn't very nice to his Mum.Today, he woul...Dan wasn't very nice to his Mum.Today, he would be doing a family violence crash course provided by Dan Andrews. So much for the warm loving Kelly family.Tom Bolanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-69313170024236153662017-06-13T19:09:01.137+10:002017-06-13T19:09:01.137+10:00Yes, Ned said that Fitzpatrick "said we were ...Yes, Ned said that Fitzpatrick "said we were good friends & even swore it" (Jerilderie Letter VSL, p. 34). BTW everyone should grab the free transcript from http://www.murrumbidgee.nsw.gov.au/f.ashx/COUNCIL-PUBLICATIONS/transcript-the-jerilderie-letter.pdf - don't pay for a book copy by any rip-off artist. The problem is how much or what people read into that. The sequence of events on 15 April is that Mrs Kelly said something to the two younger girls who ran out, to the back hut as Fitzpatrick later realised, and alerted Ned. It was then that Mrs Kelly said that he wouldn't be taking Dan. Dan said, "Shut up, mother, that's all right". Skillion went past the house, and then Ned came to the doorway and without a word fired at him. So yes, Mrs Kelly summoned Ned and caused the fracas. It seems that Ned may have thought it was a different policeman in the house, one with whom he had a particular hatred, as discussed in the article based on a newspaper report of the day. <br /><br />At the end of the fracas Ned seemed to think Fitzpatrick's word not to report the incident could be trusted. (There is nothing wrong with reporting someone shooting at you to the police, I would have thought, policeman or otherwise.) Also, Ned had previously got Dan and two Lloyd brothers to hand themselves in over another incident. So there seems to be something in it, acquaintance-wise, but one might also think that the notorious Kellys would be known to a range of police who might chat to them now and again. Fitzpatrick spent a long time chatting with Mrs Kelly while waiting to see if Dan returned home that afternoon. That does not mean Mrs Kelly was at all pleased to see him. Some have speculated that Ned and Fitzpatrick were drinking buddies, but I have seen nothing to support it. I'm not dismissing it, by the way, just exercising scepticism pending some concrete backing or refutation.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-74793817642611089872017-06-13T16:20:42.924+10:002017-06-13T16:20:42.924+10:00Stuart the other interesting aspect which is worth...Stuart the other interesting aspect which is worth factoring in to the calculation is the relationship between Ned and Fitzpatrick. Morrissey seemed to think they were almost friends for a time, and if it hadn't been for Mrs Kellys intervention, it seems Dan was quite willing to go with him quietly.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.com