tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post6592614858623319796..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: The Fitzpatrick Conspiracy : Part Three Deehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-75956168216765165732018-08-27T14:45:26.079+10:002018-08-27T14:45:26.079+10:00The Walking Tour does not go to the Gaol but to th...The Walking Tour does not go to the Gaol but to the cell under the Town Hall where Harry Power had been kept. The tour guide says that Ellen was also kept their for a short time. Ive done the tour twice now and both guides cited an image of the Kellys being poor persecuted farmers and the police have handed and corrupt. The second time I went, not that long ago, I was hoping the Guide would be Michael, the Guide who claims he doesnt tell any porkies but on that day he was assigned to duties in the Court House. Apparently the Kelly fanciers who play IdentiDee have circuited among themselves pictures they say ar of me and as a result he had declared he would recognise me if I went there - so I had a chat to him in the Court house and he didn't ! Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-44488442509916089262018-08-27T14:22:44.570+10:002018-08-27T14:22:44.570+10:00What bugs me about it all is that even more moneys...What bugs me about it all is that even more moneys going to be wasted in perpetuating an almost completely false memory of a man who was nothing much more than a thief, violent killer and thwarted mass murderer. <br /><br />Having said that I don't think the Daniels Government has had any input into the NK Alive project so far- I think its local government that have paid the 150 odd thousand to the private consultancy that has made all these suggestions, and they've certainly done alright out of it. <br /><br />Its now up to the local Governments to decide which of the flashy projects they are willing to spend money on, and my guess is they will fund a couple of the cheapest and that will be it. There was proposal for a Tower at Glenrowan years ago that went nowhere after thousands had been spent commissioning yet another report and I will eat my hat if it ever gets built. <br /><br />Mark I know you have a soft spot for Ned Kelly but the days of Kelly idolatry are numbered. He has earned himself a tiny place as a villain in the pages of the Australian history books, and perhaps his worshippers should get a mention under "Deluded" but thats about it. Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-53990950014641374932018-08-27T12:57:12.241+10:002018-08-27T12:57:12.241+10:00Well, it seems like Dee is not the only bloody Gri...Well, it seems like Dee is not the only bloody Grinch around here. You 2 sad sacks don't want the new projects to get up? Gee.. What a surprise. Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-26222017569612621412018-08-27T08:05:30.724+10:002018-08-27T08:05:30.724+10:00They couldn't care less about it being right. ...They couldn't care less about it being right. Its just a rates funded fan club for Kelly fans. It sounds like it runs at a loss. Daniels is a Wangaratta boy so that would explain it. Those people wouldn't know facts if they fell over them. They sit in offices flushing taxpayer money down the toilet. The only jobs they ever create are more government jobs shuffling paper and talking bullsh*t, and more regulations and paperwork to stop real businesses getting on with making a fair living. How long do they think tourists are going to keep coming when they realise they are being fed bullsh*t?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-31934794971829774322018-08-26T22:59:37.372+10:002018-08-26T22:59:37.372+10:00It's highly unlikely there is any record of wh...It's highly unlikely there is any record of which cell was occupied by Ellen Kelly and her 3-month baby. There have been years of complaints about disinformation at Beechworth sites and presentations, especially court recreations. This was especially true during the Kelly Weekends.<br /><br />Now the Daniels Govt is funding more of this guff.<br /><br />Everything at Beechworth that is Kelly related should be properly peer reviewed. That way, those people put their names and reputations on the line.Ashleigh Broadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-76316977675287033232018-08-26T19:51:34.102+10:002018-08-26T19:51:34.102+10:00From Trip Advisor user about the Beechworth Ned Ke...From Trip Advisor user about the Beechworth Ned Kelly Walking Tour<br />Immerse yourself in the history and folklore of the Kellys<br />"A wet day but it didn't deter our guide from an informative and entertaining tour of the life and times of the Kelly family. He related the early history of the Kellys and took us through the sequence of events leading to Ned Kelly and his gang and their escapades and clashes with the police and his eventual capture. He was very much a victim of the times and the harassment and persecution of his family that turned Ned to a life of crime at an early age but a folk hero to many people. Tour took in visits to Burke museum and other buildings featuring in the life of the Kellys. Most poignant was seeing the cell where Mrs Kelly and her 3 month old baby were locked up for a time. Tour highly recommended. Tour has a nominal charge payable at information centre." https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g552137-d1954121-r587792473-Ned_Kelly_Guided_Walking_Tour-Beechworth_Victoria.html#<br /><br />Let's repeat that middle bit: "He was very much a victim of the times and the harassment and persecution of his family that turned Ned to a life of crime at an early age but a folk hero to many people". It sounds like the Beechworth guides are telling lies of Ned Kelly proportions. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-6736735313787840822018-08-26T08:42:18.466+10:002018-08-26T08:42:18.466+10:00Re George Metcalf - does anyone have a scan of Met...Re George Metcalf - does anyone have a scan of Metcalf's death certificate they would like to share?Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-64219583272644348012018-08-26T08:38:20.927+10:002018-08-26T08:38:20.927+10:00Thanks Cam, I'll see what else anyone might ad...Thanks Cam, I'll see what else anyone might add down the line. I don't know if there will turn out to be a puzzle to solve or not, but it is interesting to wonder about.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-75292787513647808952018-08-25T22:06:41.892+10:002018-08-25T22:06:41.892+10:00MacFarlane (2012: 67) for Germans Creek, can't...MacFarlane (2012: 67) for Germans Creek, can't remember the King River ref. As for the "quiet years" I think you'll find it is another IJ concoction. MacFarlane (2012: 52) shows Ned was charged with horse theft at Oxley during that period, but was discharged.Cam Westnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-3285456038496043712018-08-25T08:50:59.617+10:002018-08-25T08:50:59.617+10:00Hi Cam, would you possibly be able to point me to ...Hi Cam, would you possibly be able to point me to any books or references that mention that? It is not something I have ever looked at! <br />Dee, has there been anything in the past about the "quiet years" on this blog? Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-8094853848576287652018-08-24T22:09:16.255+10:002018-08-24T22:09:16.255+10:00The gang were mining for gold in Germans Creek, no...The gang were mining for gold in Germans Creek, not far from Stringybark Creek - and in the King River.Cam Westnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-54403850493233549992018-08-24T18:32:11.381+10:002018-08-24T18:32:11.381+10:00Mark you're right, you're unusual.
But y...Mark you're right, you're unusual. <br /><br />But you shouldn't be afraid of having shit hung on you for expressing an opinion. If people attack YOU for exercising your right to free speech then the problem is THEM, not you, and why would you worry about what such disrespectful people have to say about anything? Apart from pointing out that their ad hominem attacks render them irrelevant to the debate, they should be ignored. <br /><br />As for these people you know and love in the Kelly world, given what I have been reading on facebook pages, it seems the love isn't being reciprocated. The shit they would hang on you is bullying. I am afraid given their performances this week about Fitzpatricks death certificate, and their performances about everything else over the last six years, I cant share your optimism that over time what you call the 'revisionist wave' - what I call corrections to the history books - will trickle down to these people. They have absolutely zero interest in anything other than defending their Kelly myths by whatever tactic they can put their hands on. They are a lost cause and I am not interested in having anything to do with them or trying to enlighten or educate or even engage with them. <br /><br />I write for the interested observer and anyone actually looking to finding out the truth about the Kelly outbreak. Such people are worth engaging. They have opinions they might share and perspectives we might not have seen, and vice versa. Sharing knowledge and ideas is what interests me, not trying to persuade bigots and bullies.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-23610170873433788462018-08-24T18:26:12.002+10:002018-08-24T18:26:12.002+10:00Hi Mark, fair enough, I will try to avoid sledgeha...Hi Mark, fair enough, I will try to avoid sledgehammering in future comments. But I still feel it is necessary to point out gross historical errors where they appear. So I will try and do it in a more reasonable way... There are still a couple of interesting historical puzzles to investigate, however. One of these is the "quiet years", when Ned was possibly earning an honest living for about 3 years. There is an old Ian Jones article about it in "Walkabout" magazine from the early 1960s. Obviously the period claimed will have start and end dates. It could be interesting to see what happened in between. Up in Beechworth I was told that there is some evidence somewhere of him working in the timber industry, but as what I don't know - cutting, logging, sawing, who knows. (Not that debateable photo in the Vault, other info altogether.) It would be interesting to put some dates into what is known. There is a possibility he might have been involved in gold mining at some point too. And from memory there was a horse theft incident as well. So maybe that would all be an interesting investigation...Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-81240419173818651182018-08-24T11:42:53.032+10:002018-08-24T11:42:53.032+10:00Oh God Dee. If I was to do a review of Morrisseys...Oh God Dee. If I was to do a review of Morrisseys new book, I would have more shit hung on me than a Bottersnikes Christmas tree. Even I have limits. Appreciating both sides of the argument does me no favours with anyone I have discovered. I am kind of a lone wolf in this regard. In fact, I have been referred to as the Aaron Sherritt of the Kelly internet. Not fair and not true. <br /><br />Hi Stuart. Yes, I get your points about Corfields work and I am glad you note that most don't have the chance or time to engage in primary work. So that leaves us with what is already on the record. My point really was, we can criticise others work but not in the pragmatic, unempathetic, sledgehammer way that you and Dee seem to? Yes, Justin got some fairly salient points incorrect but I temper that with the fact that putting together this huge tome at all was no mean feat. <br /><br />The revisionist wave will work it's way down. But please be patient and understanding. I cannot stress this enough. The people I know and love in the Kelly world have been a student of Ned since children in the main. As have I. Its a slow, intricate process. Lets be patient and decent. The sledgehammer approach does not work for most. (I love it but I am unusual... wink..) Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-26525975763214454412018-08-23T20:39:12.215+10:002018-08-23T20:39:12.215+10:00Hi Mark, I may have got overheated but it is not a...Hi Mark, I may have got overheated but it is not about being charitable. The Kelly Republic myth is the main pillar of a dominant Kelly speculation. If you (or anyone reading) read the first two sentences of Corfield's entry for "Republic of North- Eastern Victoria" you will see the problem. Then see how it is elaborated and built up in the third paragraph. This is a potted version of now myths are constructed - "we have nothing, but it might be something". <br />Next, his entry on "Metcalf, George", the second and third sentences; then the skulduggery of the third sentence, and the references for this historical lie. I wrote this up in "Ned Kelly's shooting of George Metcalf". <br />Finally, his entry for Fitzpatrick, with which I had some difficulty. So, some colossal and extraordinarily influential factual historical errors about three central problems in the popular Kelly story. And still frequently quoted as an authoritative reference.<br /><br />I agree that it would have been a massive effort putting it together, but what should be done when looking for facts about the Kelly story? I bought a second-hand copy to have as a quick handy reference, to look up things in what is widely regarded as a generally reliable reference book. Imagine my surprise when I found that for most of the small range of topics I am interested in, I couldn't rely on it, and had to check most things myself, and trace them back to actual source evidence. But I also saw how widely it is quoted by others. That creates a huge problem for anyone who wants reliable facts. So my solution is unfortunately for anything significant, I have to double check everything. And because it is so widely used as a reference book, and held in many libraries, I have to point out any errors that affect things I am researching, to counter the problem that people will say I'm wrong about something "because they looked it up in the NKE". Most people don't do primary research. It takes a long time and there are limited hours available. Plus, there is a lot of good, interesting stuff written by amateur historians. But the Kelly problems I have looked at are significant historical problems, not little things, and so it seems compulsory to highlight errors in such things as reference books where they exist, otherwise the errors go unchallenged. For much of the "who-was-who in the Kelly days" material, it is an excellent easy reference with little to worry about. The problem is when it gets into historical interpretation. Some is right, some is wrong, but you never know without checking up.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-17549859025489443912018-08-23T18:26:45.050+10:002018-08-23T18:26:45.050+10:00Thanks Mark. I am still waiting for my copy and lo...Thanks Mark. I am still waiting for my copy and look forward to reading it. Why don't you be the person who writes the Blog Post review of this book? Be as polite and as nice to Morrissey as you like and then we will all discuss what you have to say after we have also read it. <br /><br />Regarding Corfields book, you will know I posted a review of it and was very complimentary. However, there are some very serious and important errors in that book and I think its absolutely vital that we encourage people using it to be careful.<br /><br />Lastly, regarding your appeal for good manners, this is not the forum where that advice is most needed by a very long shot. Maybe you could go there and offer them the same advice - but dont expect a polite response!Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-20683587460466860872018-08-23T13:33:07.472+10:002018-08-23T13:33:07.472+10:00Good Afternoon All.
I trust you are well.
Let me ...Good Afternoon All.<br />I trust you are well.<br /><br />Let me say again on the record that I enjoyed Jacks book. I wish he wasn't copping all this negativity. I also regret Ian McFarlanes "Ünmasked" book being vilified as I believe it's a very worthy addition to the Kellyana shelves. In fact, it's this book that brought me back from the wilderness in a way. It's thought provoking viewpoints rekindled my interest in the Kelly Outbreak. <br /><br />Which brings me to Doug Morrissey. Last night, I received my copy of his second Ned book in the post. "Ned Kelly: Squatters, Selectors, Stock thieves." (Volume 2 of a projected trilogy.) It will be criticised. It will be maligned. Doug will be abused I am sure. But can I ask that we all refrain? (and that goes for all sites..) Thus far, it looks good. The contextual information on Kelly Country in the late 1870's will be invaluable. (albeit it possibly a dry read.) <br /><br />Interestingly, Doug himself started out as pro Ned when he was young and spent a lot of his childhood in Moyhu, in the "heartland". It was only when he went to Uni that the research undertaken led to him changing his opinion on Kelly. He indeed had an interesting journey as a student of the Kelly story. And his mentor, John Hirst, seemed to be a towering, interesting presence throughout. <br /><br />Lets give this book a go. As we should EVERYONES work. And Peter? I also think Corfields book is an excellent resource. The material alone that he collated is no mean feat. I think Mr. Dawson was a little bit uncharitable there. But then again, I guess we are all different. Remember though, good manners cost nothing. Am I right? Or am I right? <br /><br />Love from Mark.<br />In Adelaide. Wink. Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-24804954900146831572018-08-23T07:44:04.777+10:002018-08-23T07:44:04.777+10:00Hi Peter, in my comment I was only referring to th...Hi Peter, in my comment I was only referring to that one part of his write-up on Fitzpatrick that I quoted and talked about, where he said Fitzpatrick "was discharged … for being a perjurer and a drunkard". It is utter rubbish and if he had bothered to look at the PROV file while doing the Fitzpatrick entry he would have known that. But no, it's more fun to pour scorn and crap all over Fitzpatrick from the great heights of Kelly fandom. The way Fitzpatrick has been slagged off by decades of Kelly writers is sickening. Now Dee has proved another myth wrong, the myth that Fitzpatrick died of alcohol-related cirrhosis. Never, ever once do any Kelly nuts reconsider that Fitzpatrick's testimony was given honestly and truthfully as best he recalled, or acknowledge that it was consistent over time. No, they slag him off, call him a drunken perjurer, and take great delight in defaming him at every possible opportunity. This is not doing research, it is recycling old prejudices without making any effort to check anything. This is how myths arise and are perpetuated. It is historical lies and bunkum. Fitzpatrick has wrongly been portrayed as the villain of the Kelly outbreak for almost 140 years, no wonder he went to pieces. He stood by his Kelly testimony in the Cookson interview of 1911 - that is what motivated me to see why he would do that; and the investigation showed that he did so because he was telling the truth. His testimony holds up to scrutiny, but I was the first person in 140 years to take a few hours to reconstruct it. And when Fitzpatrick said that he had only the one brandy and lemonade on the way to Mrs Kellys (yes, against regulations to have one halfway through a 2 hour ride while calling at a pub form information, where the owner was said by Ned Kelly himself to be a police informer), and where he also had a brandy on his way back with a gunshot wound and shock, and was attested by the doctor at Benalla NOT to have been drunk on his return, wouldn't someone writing an article when creating a Kelly reference book and read at least the newspaper write-ups of his testimony check this basic information before wrongly stating for all the world to read as a citable scholarly reference that Fitzpatrick was dismissed as a "perjurer and drunkard"? Ever since 2003 every person who consults the encyclopaedia, every teacher writing classroom notes, every schoolkid doing research, every curious member of the public, is served up the same utterly wrong information by a specialist encyclopaedia reference work for which as far as I know no errata was ever released, because it just reflects the same old unthinking bile with which Fitzpatrick has always been treated by Kelly partisans. An errata note is long overdue, as is an apology to Fitzpatrick's descendants who have been subject to this misinformation by a raft of Kelly writers for decades. But no Kelly author ever apologises for errors where Fitzpatrick I concerned. I would love to see one of them do so...Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-90390970520121926722018-08-22T23:36:23.867+10:002018-08-22T23:36:23.867+10:00The retired truck driver with the Hate Site has no...The retired truck driver with the Hate Site has no credentials whatever as a Kelly expert - and none as a medico or pathologist. The folks at the Hate Site and visitors are simply getting fed the opinions of a retired truck driver.<br /><br />Stuart Dawson, an academic with fine credentials, could find no evidence FitzPatrick was alcohol driven. But the retired truck driver says "Fitzpatrick had a known drinking problem" and "Fitzpatrick was known to have a drinking problem" and continues "just like he could not stay away from young women, apparently admirable attributes according to MacFarlane and Dawson". Where is his evidence for these statements? He makes up stuff as he goes along and can hatch conspiracy plots in a blink of an eye. Him and his Hate Site are a total waste of space.Roynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-22725038334670542092018-08-22T22:21:56.047+10:002018-08-22T22:21:56.047+10:00Hi Stuart, I think Corfield’s Encyclopedia is a fa...Hi Stuart, I think Corfield’s Encyclopedia is a fantastic resource. For sure there are errors, but it remains a very useful first port of call when researching all things related to the Kelly story. Justin and his father Robin put a lot of work into it, based to a large extent (according to Justin) on notes assembled by his father over the period 1958-59. The first edition (and as far as I know, the only edition) was published in 2003. Justin told me its assembly entailed checking through census records and hours of poring through microfilm. To a large extent they had to accept certain unverified “facts” as, well, facts. It simply wasn’t an option to do extensive primary research – hell, I’ve been doing some primary research on a couple of aspects of the Kelly story and it’s been taking years, as was the case with your Fitzpatrick research. So I’d be very reluctant to label their research as wrong and amateurish. I’m sure Justin would be the first to accept that there is a need for corrections to some of the entries. Peter Newmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-60153229614356066582018-08-22T21:30:55.656+10:002018-08-22T21:30:55.656+10:00Corfield's "Ned Kelly Encyclopaedia"...Corfield's "Ned Kelly Encyclopaedia" is responsible for large numbers of people wrongly believing Fitzpatrick "was discharged … for being a perjurer and a drunkard" (p. 165). Corfield's research was both wrong and amateurish. He jumped into the long line of people keen to have a go at Fitzpatrick without doing any primary research whatsoever, and stuffed it completely up like so many others have done before and after him. <br /><br />In fact Fitzpatrick was discharged by Standish on 27 April 1880 “for inefficiency and insubordination” (Standish, letter to Chief Secretary, with file note, 23 April 1880, VPRS 3991 Unit 1257 Item 81/5048). He was denied any opportunity to reply (Fitzpatrick, RC Q12893). <br /><br />On learning of his dismissal, over 100 residents of the Lancefield district petitioned the Chief Commissioner that Fitzpatrick had given excellent service throughout his time there, and urged his reinstatement. Specifically, the petitioners said he was “zealous, diligent, obliging, and universally liked, while we never saw him in company of any but the best citizens. Had he been what [Mayes’] report was said to allege it could not have escaped our attention. He made several clever captures and appeared to us as one of the most efficient and obliging men in the force” (Lancefield petition, VPRS 4969 Unit 1 Item 30).<br /><br />Google "Redeeming Fitzpatrick" to get the free full story on the Fitzpatrick Incident if you haven't read it yet - the story Kelly enthusiasts don't want anyone to read. The story the Ned Kelly Vault ignores too, for all its claims to acknowledging research into all sides of the Kelly story.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-48566526432368573072018-08-22T20:15:48.006+10:002018-08-22T20:15:48.006+10:00Well I have now seen Fitzpatricks death certificat...Well I have now seen Fitzpatricks death certificate and once again we have uncovered another serious mistake in Corfields encyclopaedia. Cirrhosis is NOT MENTIONED. Rather it reports he died of liver sarcoma that had invaded the stomach. Its absolute conclusive - this was nothing to do with alcohol. <br /><br />So I ask again, where is the evidence he had a problem with alcohol?Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-40437174091371301572018-08-21T22:25:21.783+10:002018-08-21T22:25:21.783+10:00Oh really? I doubt it.Oh really? I doubt it.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-28147763193325170762018-08-21T22:10:39.366+10:002018-08-21T22:10:39.366+10:00The retired truck driver with the Hate Site is gru...The retired truck driver with the Hate Site is grumpy that Dee and Hamish have left comments on Booktopia critical of what he calls the 'highly acclaimed' Jack Peterson piffle.<br /><br />It has never been even slightly acclaimed. No reviews by professional book reviewers, newspapers. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing.<br /><br />The Hate Site attempted to rubbish "The Kelly Gang Unmasked" book, but failed completely. This book got plenty of (real) highly acclaimed reviews, including one by Sir Clive Sinclair in the London Times Literary Supplement - the most prestigious of all book reviews in the world! No Kelly book previously or since got this level of top reviewer recognition. <br /><br />It's time Facebook shut down the Hate Site. Roynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-86235221065746350422018-08-21T07:38:02.068+10:002018-08-21T07:38:02.068+10:00Big egg on face for this admin is coming in a big ...Big egg on face for this admin is coming in a big way I assure you.Anonymous99noreply@blogger.com