tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post4780892637117793597..comments2024-01-19T04:32:25.260+11:00Comments on Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend: The Greatest Kelly Myth : Part 5.Deehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-85982701366928035882017-03-12T00:25:00.756+11:002017-03-12T00:25:00.756+11:00Thanks - "anonymous".Thanks - "anonymous".Ray Goochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-51518453715222537962017-03-08T09:05:55.158+11:002017-03-08T09:05:55.158+11:00No worries, at times I start reading books and don...No worries, at times I start reading books and don't finish them right then or just skim through. Like I said, some things aren't meant to come to light until they are supposed to. ;)Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-58797848007681656732017-03-08T08:37:31.624+11:002017-03-08T08:37:31.624+11:00I think another factor to be considered in any sup...I think another factor to be considered in any supposed NE Victoria republic suggestion, is the makeup of the community in that region at that time i.e. late 1870s. While there was still a very strong Irish nucleus among the community, this was rapidly being replaced by native born members with less of a connection back to the Old Country. If there had been conversations around dinner tables about such a movement, I suspect that the younger, Australian-born members would have seen this as a load of blarney! And I certainly don't support the view that Ned Kelly, an uneducated habitual criminal, had the political nouse for such a venture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-80619091356625431332017-03-07T23:30:13.929+11:002017-03-07T23:30:13.929+11:00That was me, Sharon. I only browsed that book whi...That was me, Sharon. I only browsed that book while in a shop one day. I don't recall anything of particular significance relating to Leonard Radic. I have never read the full book and do not own a copy, so am not sure what is being alluded to here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-42392370996716234712017-03-07T17:31:10.064+11:002017-03-07T17:31:10.064+11:00I must say I strongly support Anonymous’s contribu...I must say I strongly support Anonymous’s contributions here, assuming it is the same Anonymous on 5 and 6 March. The zeitgeist theory is around; it is just not what I am looking at. But someone else might like to look into it. The main problem is that zeitgeists are typically retrospective. We see that something social or political happened, and we look for a “spirit of the times” that caused it. I could say there was a republican zeitgeist in the 1990s with a high-profile republican movement promoting itself everywhere. Or I could say that there was a stronger non-republic zeitgeist because it didn’t happen. So are you going to say there was a republican zeitgeist, or just some noisy people in favour? I don’t recall any overwhelming republican “spirit of the times” then; but various commentators claimed one.<br /> <br />Now we have a theory that there was a dynamically powerful and popular “spirit of the times”, at least in NE Victoria, or maybe that part of it that was of Irish background, or just that bit of that which was anti-British, or perhaps just some members of the large Kelly and relatives clan, with maybe a few larrikin mates, who took time out of drinking, brawling, thieving, and being guests at one of Her Majesty’s bluestone facilities, to raise their collective political consciousness into the forging of a organised clandestine movement for the planning and declaration of a Republic of NE Victoria under the wise and almost universally loved leadership of General Edward Kelly, brainiac extraordinaire, who somehow managed to write two very long, whining letters and give many a tipsy speech to his hostages about how hard done by he was without even the teeniest mention of any political ambition or agenda. Well, maybe. But the zeitgeist I see with plenty of evidence from the day is a general Victorian spirit of hang the bugger. (Except for the zeitgeist of the abolitionists.)Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-45376217046024974642017-03-07T13:11:50.722+11:002017-03-07T13:11:50.722+11:00We are indeed.. And its invigorating. We are indeed.. And its invigorating. Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162533821220639075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-15357177577829930312017-03-07T11:42:40.664+11:002017-03-07T11:42:40.664+11:00One thing to keep in mind is that many of us sympa...One thing to keep in mind is that many of us sympathisers never really bought into the whole Republic thing to start with, so no one should go around thinking that all of the pro-Kelly folks are on the run as concerns this particular issue. I am grateful that someone as tenacious and meticulous as Stuart Dawson is on the case. I look forward to all of his findings. It seems that perhaps he has come to the kingdom for such a time as this (as well as for a few other things). What is odd is that back in January of 2015 at this very blog someone did a post wherein they mentioned Cameron Forbes' "Australia on Horseback." They had seen something in it saying that Doug Morrissey had an upcoming book and they reported it to us. I wonder if this individual had read the entire Forbes book and had come across the Len Radic information but did not feel a need to mention it? If they had, all of this could be in the rear view mirror by now. I guess some things are not meant to come to light until they are supposed to. ;)Sharon Hollingsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11500349415203451928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-62003212370504070382017-03-07T09:33:21.233+11:002017-03-07T09:33:21.233+11:00Ray Gooch (what an interesting name) how is anonym...Ray Gooch (what an interesting name) how is anonymous disrupting the blog? I would suggest that 'Ray Gooch' is doing this quite successfully by him/herself. <br />Please Dee get rid of your dubious contributors that post as if they are real people. It's very boring and time wasting. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-14922365720557564292017-03-07T08:40:44.027+11:002017-03-07T08:40:44.027+11:00This is discussion is really terrific and once aga...This is discussion is really terrific and once again, we have Stuart to thank for the interest it is generating. However, it is pretty much over my head so I simply sit back with both my mind and mouth open trying to take it all in!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-77390338364413717282017-03-06T23:15:41.596+11:002017-03-06T23:15:41.596+11:00Dee, the demographics for Ballarat in late 1854 ar...Dee, the demographics for Ballarat in late 1854 are only guessed at by historians. Victoria by then had censuses, but the population of diggers was in a state of ever-changing upheaval.<br /><br />I'm prepared to concede an Irish preponderance but only because the Irish love getting something for nothing.<br /><br />Only kidding, I think.Jack Forrestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-47553769526761849372017-03-06T22:30:55.849+11:002017-03-06T22:30:55.849+11:00'Anonymous' is the third person to try and...'Anonymous' is the third person to try and disrupt this blog with dud posts in three months. Or maybe, it is one person returning for a third try. This stuff is exceedingly boring and time-wasting, which is the intention of course.<br /><br />Rid us of this dopey numbskull, Dee!<br /><br />Keep those bombs coming Stuart and Dee. The pro-Kelly drongos are on the run!Ray Goochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-77567117026383410882017-03-06T20:32:05.130+11:002017-03-06T20:32:05.130+11:00Hi Dee, you are right in your quote of what Jones ...Hi Dee, you are right in your quote of what Jones said, but I'd hate to be thought of as a "real academic" - look at all the stuff so many of them pontificate about and get wrong. I'm more of an academically trained ratbag. I could never run a blog, I wouldn't have the patience. I'm going to completely beg out of the social history argument. What started me off on the republic was the claims by Phillips in his Kerford oration, which seem far fetched, to put it politely. <br /><br />Largely reliant on the alleged Radic sighting of a Declaration of a Kelly re3public (as filtered through Ian Jones), Phillips claims to have himself seen a reference to it in a 1920s edition of the Irish Times. Last year I spent a day both computer searching and then physically checking the Irish Times and the Irish Weekly Times from about 1915 to 1935 and guess what? Not one item of any kind about a Kelly republic. As Phillips said at the end of his Kerford oration, "Well, ladies and gentlemen, there – as we say at the law courts – is the evidence. I simply put it before you for your consideration." And after a day of careful checking, I have found that his own evidence does not exist. Court dismissed. I am now retiring from this particular debate until my wider research is completed in a few months, but that gives you a one more instance of some alleged evidence for a Kelly republic that is actually non-existent. I think that's enough give-aways for work in progress for now.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-48830617686881189132017-03-06T20:01:45.617+11:002017-03-06T20:01:45.617+11:00Stuart I feel this should be your Blog now as you ...Stuart I feel this should be your Blog now as you are making all the great revelations now! A real academic! I remember in the discussions after Bates talk - or was it Jones' - when he was challenged Ian lamely ended up saying "well we are in happy disagreement". He wouldn't accept the Professors view...not that one is obliged to, and professors don't always get it right - look at Moloney - but it was an interesting insight into Jones mind set. <br /><br />As I understand from my reading about Eureka it wasn't fundamentally an irish vs English conflict but a reaction to the harsh penalties and taxes being imposed on the diggers by authorities. The taxes weren't being imposed because they were Irish and they weren't resisted because it was the British colonial authorities imposing them but they were harsh unjust and brutally enforced. The battle was not for Irish republicanism or separatism but a protest against harsh laws and taxes.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-74611567607059807422017-03-06T18:38:30.538+11:002017-03-06T18:38:30.538+11:00Hi Anonymous, I haven't got a clue as that'...Hi Anonymous, I haven't got a clue as that's not what I'm looking at. I'm only looking at whether there was, as some have claimed, a clear, recognisable Kelly republican sentiment or not. I'm not doing social history here. I'm doing the specific claims by Brown, Jones, Phillips, and friends, who state that there was an identifiable, recognisable and definable Kelly republican movement based on facts, documents and evidence. <br /><br />True, that is tied in to some extent by Ian Jones with groundswells of Irish republican leanings. But that involves looking at Morrissey's work on the mixed allegiances and social intermingling of the Irish and other colonials in the NE in particular, and that there was now clear Irish = republican spilt of opinion. Just think of all those strapping Irish lads who took the Queen's shilling and settled for a lazy, loafing billet etc.; or all the non-republican Irish background selectors; and the fact explored by Morrissey (in 'Lawless Life' and in his far more meticulously detailed and documented PhD thesis) that the bulk of NE selectors were making a go of their farms in those years, contra Ian Jones. <br /><br />And the wholly inadequate responses by Ian Jones to Weston Bate in 'Man and Myth', where Bates shoots down a large chunk of Jones' speculations and Jones replies to the effect of that's not what the newspapers he read say. Bates of course was one of the leading social historians looking at this stuff. Also, paint me pink and call me Percy, but having read Gregory Blake's "Eureka Stockade: a ferocious and bloody battle", I see no link whatsoever between the Kelly banditti of around 1876-80 and the Eureka diggers' battle of 1854.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-63121912462217560442017-03-06T18:17:27.556+11:002017-03-06T18:17:27.556+11:00Hi Spudee, yes all those things and more have to b...Hi Spudee, yes all those things and more have to be analysed and accounted for. Also the separation movement question; as they could have had a public and totally legal separation movement (as the Riverina and elsewhere did), why bother with some secret republican society? Suffice to say there's a fair bit of work in it to go yet. My unbridled confidence only comes from not yet finding anything that can't be explained quite easily without republican sentiments. Of course, I could be totally wrong, or find some insurmountable stumbling block. But that's the challenge, have a look, test it out, and see where it goes. Who cares anyway, it was 140 years ago. But it is an intrinsically interesting puzzle, so why not have a look at it?Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-44749304363909812452017-03-06T12:38:51.926+11:002017-03-06T12:38:51.926+11:00Stuart, how do you weave around the Australian and...Stuart, how do you weave around the Australian and International Irish uprisings as possible precursors and influences towards the NE republican sentiments during the time of the Kelly's? What about Eureka, Rouse Hill, Castle Hill do you think these earlier uprisings are related to how the Irish felt during the time Ned and the Gang banded together to cause mayhem. I know it's not an easy question to answer but a NE document doesn't really have to exist if there is significant ill feeling amongst families who are familiar with Irish uprisings locally and in the Irish homeland. <br />A republican document is evidence of intent but so are patriotic feelings shared orally. <br />Such an interesting topic to unpack but very difficult to gauge the 'swell' without known statistics, public polling of sentiments and information about known Irish Australian Nationalists. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-78986023027172513632017-03-06T11:18:52.602+11:002017-03-06T11:18:52.602+11:00As we know, Stuart has 'form' for justifyi...As we know, Stuart has 'form' for justifying what he claims by good, strong and backed-up research. So I personally feel confident that what he uncovers and writes up will have convincing arguments that the republic for NE Victoria was a load on bunkum. So I suppose that if we accept that any declaration or manifesto for a republican idea was and is non-existent, what other evidence is there to support the theory of a republican movement in that area at that time. There have been suggestions that during the Glenrowan siege, groups of men, possibly sympathisers, had been spotted in the area. There were also reports of signal rockets having been fired. There have been suggestions that some sympathisers had been armed to support the gang and perhaps as a corollary, the NE Victoria republican movement. If all of this was in-place, what happened? From what I have read it seems that anything remotely connected to a rising of some sort simply evaporated. Why was this so? Was it a lack of organisation, lack of courage, or just cold feet at the last minute? Will we ever know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-85538455181148430502017-03-06T10:49:04.676+11:002017-03-06T10:49:04.676+11:00Anonymous - a complete non-sequiter! Absence of th...Anonymous - a complete non-sequiter! Absence of the Document means nothing about 'Home Rule" sentiment. It just means the claim that it existed and was evidence in support of it, is wrong. So please go on and make your case for Ned being some sort of revolutionary, some sort of leader of a political movement of some sort, or whatever it is you're alleging he was part of and we'll have a look at it. Ian Jones case has fallen apart, so lets see if you can do ant better.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-39633850672606169742017-03-06T10:06:12.604+11:002017-03-06T10:06:12.604+11:00Hi Anonymous, the zeitgeist is having a rest. It h...Hi Anonymous, the zeitgeist is having a rest. It has a serious hangover after Morrissey's demolition of the frequently alleged but historically invisible claimed struggle between nationalist Irish background colonials and the status quo both in NE Vic and elsewhere; and research by Ben Jones' article, "Colonial Republicanism: Re-examining the Impact of Civic Republican Ideology in Pre-Constitution New South Wales", which I mentioned previously on this blog, demonstrating that colonial republican sentiments were overwhelmingly not anti-British and anti-monarchist. Zeitgeists are a bit like poltergeists, they are hard to photograph; but not necessarily any more real for that. But I will remember to have a look for any stray zeitgeists that Morrissey and others may have missed while I'm poking around at this. So far, though, the horizon is bare. Is there any sign of a republican zeitgeist in any of the huge collection of documents that Kelvyn recently assembled? Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-76593041041321244712017-03-06T09:23:24.533+11:002017-03-06T09:23:24.533+11:00Ahhh... the sacred NE republic document that Kelly...Ahhh... the sacred NE republic document that Kelly 'unsypathisers' feel so precious about, its absence can only prove the Irish had no Home Rule sentiments. How preposterous Dee! Your sarcasm does nothing for your argument. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-58162697713172987412017-03-06T09:14:04.229+11:002017-03-06T09:14:04.229+11:00Stuart Dawson your research findings are an absolu...Stuart Dawson your research findings are an absolutely massive BOMBSHELL that goes to the very heart of the Mythology. It cannot survive this one. I cannot wait to read the paper you're writing. Brilliant!Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-84052257931053481232017-03-06T09:10:03.657+11:002017-03-06T09:10:03.657+11:00Right on there, Anonymous! Bloody academics always...Right on there, Anonymous! Bloody academics always wanting proof for stuff! There are no cases anywhere in the entire world historical literature of people ever making things up or getting it wrong or not knowing what the hell they're talking about so why don't these ivory tower academic types get real for once! Physical evidence for stuff is for dummies who don't know how to get with the zeitgeist, right?Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14104818673788818740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-48067670982815830592017-03-06T07:42:29.111+11:002017-03-06T07:42:29.111+11:00You don't need a declaration document for NE r...You don't need a declaration document for NE republic to act on Irish Home Rule sentiments. Typical of Trove academics they require the physical evidence in manuscript form but will fail to acknowledge the zeitgeist. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-83362110537464073662017-03-06T06:25:21.187+11:002017-03-06T06:25:21.187+11:00Hi Ray, if you read Ian Jones' write-ups, you ...Hi Ray, if you read Ian Jones' write-ups, you will see it is not Leonard Radic's fault. He was not the one pushing a Declaration claim. All he did was mention something that he vaguely recalled and had no particular interest in, to his wife, who came from the Greta area. Somehow Jones heard of this, and went on the hunt to vindicate the comment by Max Brown about a legend that a Declaration had been taken from Ned by the police on his capture at Glenrowan.<br /><br />Radic would have been pushed hard on this by Jones, as you can see from Jones' two write-ups and fragmentary descriptions of what Radic vaguely recalled seeing a few years earlier and which he told Jones he had not paid much attention to, as he had no interest in it. Justice Phillips made much of this in his talk about the "Declaration", casting Radic in the role of an "impartial witness", unbiased and therefore reliable as to what he saw. It may or may not be that Radic had what Dee above called a "false memory". I have no doubt that Radic saw something; the question is, what. <br /><br />By putting together the Ian Jones descriptions, and by examining what Max Brown said about a document taken from Ned's pocket upon capture, we can see why Jones got excited - the long-lost vindication of the planned Glenrowan train massacre that turned Ned from psychopath to political revolutionary. But it is all a straw man. I have been able to trace where Brown's "legend" of a Declaration comes from. I have been able to trace that story's re-emergence in the 1940s. I can offer a coherent explanation from these various bits of information how Brown thought he had found a Declaration legend and how he constructed it, how it grew and flourished through to the 1940s, how that is related to what Radic saw in London, and how Jones turned those things together, under the sway of Brown's republican nationalism, into his "political" Ned Kelly dream. <br /><br />Once you see the construction, it is so simple it's laughable. But assembling the evidence has taken over a year so far, and there is a few months more work to do before it can be presented in a clear, full and coherent way. It is still a complex investigation and I feel no pressure to rush it out. Hopefully it will be ready around August/September. Then the republic myth can be finally put to bed. What I can say is that Ian MacFarlane and Doug Morrissey have put plenty of holes in it. I am just working on the final piece of the puzzle, how Brown constructed the myth in the first place.Stuart Dawsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2798312463652733622.post-53940831799030861162017-03-05T23:34:08.765+11:002017-03-05T23:34:08.765+11:00The whole Leonard Radic thing was poorly handled b...The whole Leonard Radic thing was poorly handled by him and others. It just unleashed another fake rabbit for the Kelly fans to chase after. 46 years later we're still waiting for the document to be produced.<br /><br />Laughable nonsense!Ray Walshnoreply@blogger.com